The adventures of Experiment the crash test dummy

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  • wobbly
    Prophet
    • May 2012
    • 2633

    The adventures of Experiment the crash test dummy

    Experiment the crash test dummy is using a modified blows table. It's hackish & ugly but good enough to see what happens. All numbers were changed through the adj_str & adj_dex values (e.g. the blows table itself is unchanged). I've given my formally stat optimized character the blows of a standard roller while trying to hold the old max. & minimum stat points.

    The adventure starts with crash dummy walking into a store & buying the 2nd best weapon we can afford. It is a morning star doing 10.2 damage & 1 blow. Looking at the whip it's at 1.1 blow & the king of all weapons (the katana) is out of our price range.

    Code:
      [Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump]
    
     Name   Experiment I Age             16          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
     Race   Crash-Dummy  Height        5'8"   STR:     17  +0  +3  +0  18/20
     Class  Warrior      Weight    10st 0lb   INT:     10  +0  -2  +0      8
     Title  Rookie       Turns used:          WIS:     10  +0  -2  +0      8
     HP     19/19        Game           170   DEX:     18  +0  +2  +0  18/20
     SP     0/0          Standard        16   CON:     10  +0  +2  +0     12
                         Resting          0
    
     Level                  1    Armor        [0,+2]    Saving Throw     20%
     Cur Exp                0                           Stealth          Bad
     Max Exp                0    Melee        2d6,+3    Disarm - phys.   29%
     Adv Exp               10    To-hit        24,+4    Disarm - magic   22%
                                 Blows      1.0/turn    Magic Devices     19
     Gold                 217                           Searching        11%
     Burden           18.0 lb    Shoot to-dam     +0    Infravision     0 ft
     Overweight     -125.9 lb    To-hit        19,+4    Speed         Normal
     Max Depth           Town    Shots        0/turn
    
     You are the property of the corporation. You have a square shaped
     head.
    
    
    
    rAcid:............. Nexus:.............
    rElec:............. Nethr:.............
    rFire:............. Chaos:.............
    rCold:............. Disen:.............
    rPois:............. pFear:.............
    rLite:............. pBlnd:.............
    rDark:............. pConf:.............
    Sound:............. pStun:.............
    Shard:............. HLife:.............
    
    Regen:............. Stea.:.............
      ESP:............. Sear.:.............
    Invis:............. Infra:.............
    FrAct:............. Tunn.:.............
    Feath:............. Speed:.............
    S.Dig:............. Blows:.............
    ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
     Fear:............. Might:.............
    Aggrv:............. Light:.............
    
    
      [Character Equipment]
    
    a) a Morning Star (2d6) (+0,+0)
         Bought from a store
         
         Combat info:
         1.0 blow/round.
         With +4 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster
         With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster
         With +4 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         Average damage/round: 10.2.
         
    f) a Wooden Torch (5000 turns)
         An inheritance from your family
         
         Radius 1 light.
         
    
    
    
    
      [Character Inventory]
    
    a) a Ration of Food
    
    
    
    
      [Character Quiver]
    
    
    
    [Player history]
          Turn   Depth  Note
             0      0'  Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.
    
    
      [Options]
    
      [User interface]
    
    Use the roguelike command keyset             : no  (rogue_like_commands)
    Use sound                                    : no  (use_sound)
    Show damage player deals to monsters         : no  (show_damage)
    Use old target by default                    : no  (use_old_target)
    Always pickup items                          : no  (pickup_always)
    Always pickup items matching inventory       : yes (pickup_inven)
    Show flavors in object descriptions          : no  (show_flavors)
    Highlight target with cursor                 : yes (show_target)
    Highlight player with cursor between turns   : no  (highlight_player)
    Disturb whenever viewable monster moves      : yes (disturb_near)
    Show walls as solid blocks                   : no  (solid_walls)
    Show walls with shaded background            : no  (hybrid_walls)
    Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow       : no  (view_yellow_light)
    Color: Shimmer multi-colored things          : no  (animate_flicker)
    Center map continuously                      : no  (center_player)
    Color: Show unique monsters in purple        : no  (purple_uniques)
    Automatically clear '-more-' prompts         : no  (auto_more)
    Color: Player color indicates % hit points   : yes (hp_changes_color)
    Allow mouse clicks to move the player        : yes (mouse_movement)
    Notify on object recharge                    : no  (notify_recharge)
    Show effective speed as multiplier           : no  (effective_speed)
    
      [Birth]
    
    Generate a new, random artifact set          : no  (birth_randarts)
    Generate connected stairs                    : yes (birth_connect_stairs)
    Force player descent (never make up stairs)  : no  (birth_force_descend)
    Word of Recall has no effect                 : no  (birth_no_recall)
    Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (birth_no_artifacts)
    Stack objects on the floor                   : yes (birth_stacking)
    Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (birth_lose_arts)
    Show level feelings                          : yes (birth_feelings)
    Increase gold drops but disable selling      : yes (birth_no_selling)
    Start with a kit of useful gear              : no  (birth_start_kit)
    Monsters learn from their mistakes           : no  (birth_ai_learn)
    Know all runes on birth                      : no  (birth_know_runes)
    Know all flavors on birth                    : no  (birth_know_flavors)
    Persistent levels (experimental)             : no  (birth_levels_persist)
  • wobbly
    Prophet
    • May 2012
    • 2633

    #2
    I almost go to an accident with a floating eye before reading ?deep descent without a ?recall yet. I'm going to walk out. Early balance isn't even close to good. I'm well under powered & having an easy time. Find some good stuff & bullroarer drops Narthanc. It is great but no longer insanely good.

    Code:
    [Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump]
    
     Name   Experiment I Age             16          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
     Race   Crash-Dummy  Height        5'8"   STR:     17  +0  +3  +0  18/20
     Class  Warrior      Weight    10st 0lb   INT:     10  +0  -2  +0      8
     Title  Soldier      Turns used:          WIS:     10  +0  -2  +0      8
     HP     52/96        Game         20104   DEX:     18  +0  +2  +0  18/20
     SP     0/0          Standard      2035   CON:     10  +0  +2  +0     12
                         Resting         71
    
     Level                  9    Armor      [10,+25]    Saving Throw     28%
     Cur Exp              287                           Stealth          Bad
     Max Exp              287    Melee       2d4,+15    Disarm - phys.   40%
     Adv Exp              380    To-hit       36,+13    Disarm - magic   29%
                                 Blows      1.1/turn    Magic Devices     24
     Gold                1507                           Searching        40%
     Burden           98.3 lb    Shoot to-dam     +0    Infravision     0 ft
     Overweight      -45.6 lb    To-hit        31,+4    Speed         Normal
     Max Depth      300' (L6)    Shots        0/turn
    
     You are the property of the corporation. You have a square shaped
     head.
    
    
    
    rAcid:..+.........! Nexus:?............
    rElec:?............ Nethr:?............
    rFire:?............ Chaos:?............
    rCold:?............ Disen:?............
    rPois:?............ pFear:?............
    rLite:?............ pBlnd:?............
    rDark:?............ pConf:?............
    Sound:?............ pStun:?............
    Shard:?............ HLife:?............
    
    Regen:............. Stea.:.............
      ESP:?............ Sear.:...+.........
    Invis:?............ Infra:.............
    FrAct:?............ Tunn.:.............
    Feath:............. Speed:.............
    S.Dig:............. Blows:.............
    ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
     Fear:?............ Might:.............
    Aggrv:............. Light:.............
    
    
      [Character Equipment]
    
    a) the Dagger 'Narthanc' (2d4) (+9,+12) [+10] {@A2 !!, ??}
         Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5)
         
         You do not know the full extent of this item's powers.
         Cannot be harmed by acid.
         
         When activated, it creates a fire bolt with damage 9d8.
         Takes 9 to 16 turns to recharge.
         Your chance of success is 89.7%
         
         Combat info:
         1.1 blows/round.
         With +3 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.3 blows
         With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.3 blows
         Average damage/round: 23.7.
         
    c) a Ring of Acid [+7] (charging) {@A1 !!}
         Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6)
         
         Provides resistance to acid.
         
    d) a Ring of Searching <+4>
         Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6)
         
         +4 searching skill.
         
    f) a Wooden Torch (2955 turns)
         An inheritance from your family
         
         Radius 1 light.
         
    g) Soft Leather Armour [8,+6]
         Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6)
         
    j) a Hard Leather Cap [2,+0]
         Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6)
         
    
    
    
    
      [Character Inventory]
    
    a) 5 Rations of Food
    b) 4 Slime Molds
    c) 2 Flasks of oil
    d) a Potion of Cure Light Wounds {@q1}
    e) 3 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds {@q2}
    f) a Potion of Speed
    g) 4 Potions of Slowness
         It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
         
    h) 9 Scrolls of Phase Door {@r4}
    i) a Wand of Wonder (19 charges)
         Cannot be harmed by lightning.
         
    j) a Staff of Cure Light Wounds (9 charges)
    k) a Ring of Feather Falling
         Bought from a store
         
         Feather Falling.  
         
    l) 3 Wooden Torches (5000 turns)
         Radius 1 light.
         
    m) a Scimitar of Slay Dragon (4d2) (+9,+5)
         Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5)
         
         Slays dragons.
         
         Combat info:
         1.0 blow/round.
         With +4 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster
         With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster
         With +4 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         Average damage/round: 27.2 vs. dragons, and 14.6 vs. others.
         
    n) a Broad Axe (2d6) (+4,+2) {??}
         Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5)
         
         You do not know the full extent of this item's powers.
         
         Combat info:
         1.0 blow/round.
         With +5 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster
         With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster
         With +5 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         Average damage/round: 12.5.
         
    o) a Morning Star (2d6) (+0,+0)
         Bought from a store
         
         Combat info:
         1.0 blow/round.
         With +4 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster
         With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster
         With +4 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
         Average damage/round: 10.3.
         
    
    
    
    
      [Character Quiver]
    
    0) 22 Rounded Pebbles (1d2) (+0,+0)
    
    
    [Player history]
          Turn   Depth  Note
             0      0'  Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.
           247     50'  Reached level 2
           672     50'  Reached level 3
           774    300'  -- Note: ?deep descent
           786    300'  Reached level 4
           999    300'  Reached level 5
          1104    300'  Reached level 6
          1244    300'  Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's Dog
          1338    300'  Reached level 7
          1488    300'  Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's Dog
          1735    250'  Reached level 8
          2025    250'  Killed Bullroarer the Hobbit
          2025    250'  Reached level 9
          2027    250'  Found the Dagger 'Narthanc'
    
    
      [Options]
    
      [User interface]
    
    Use the roguelike command keyset             : no  (rogue_like_commands)
    Use sound                                    : no  (use_sound)
    Show damage player deals to monsters         : no  (show_damage)
    Use old target by default                    : no  (use_old_target)
    Always pickup items                          : no  (pickup_always)
    Always pickup items matching inventory       : yes (pickup_inven)
    Show flavors in object descriptions          : no  (show_flavors)
    Highlight target with cursor                 : yes (show_target)
    Highlight player with cursor between turns   : no  (highlight_player)
    Disturb whenever viewable monster moves      : yes (disturb_near)
    Show walls as solid blocks                   : no  (solid_walls)
    Show walls with shaded background            : no  (hybrid_walls)
    Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow       : no  (view_yellow_light)
    Color: Shimmer multi-colored things          : no  (animate_flicker)
    Center map continuously                      : no  (center_player)
    Color: Show unique monsters in purple        : no  (purple_uniques)
    Automatically clear '-more-' prompts         : no  (auto_more)
    Color: Player color indicates % hit points   : yes (hp_changes_color)
    Allow mouse clicks to move the player        : yes (mouse_movement)
    Notify on object recharge                    : no  (notify_recharge)
    Show effective speed as multiplier           : no  (effective_speed)
    
      [Birth]
    
    Generate a new, random artifact set          : no  (birth_randarts)
    Generate connected stairs                    : yes (birth_connect_stairs)
    Force player descent (never make up stairs)  : no  (birth_force_descend)
    Word of Recall has no effect                 : no  (birth_no_recall)
    Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (birth_no_artifacts)
    Stack objects on the floor                   : yes (birth_stacking)
    Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (birth_lose_arts)
    Show level feelings                          : yes (birth_feelings)
    Increase gold drops but disable selling      : yes (birth_no_selling)
    Start with a kit of useful gear              : no  (birth_start_kit)
    Monsters learn from their mistakes           : no  (birth_ai_learn)
    Know all runes on birth                      : no  (birth_know_runes)
    Know all flavors on birth                    : no  (birth_know_flavors)
    Persistent levels (experimental)             : no  (birth_levels_persist)

    Comment

    • Derakon
      Prophet
      • Dec 2009
      • 9022

      #3
      So, you made it so that everyone gets ~1 blow/round in the early game? Is that the gist of it?

      That could get painful in the 500-1500' range for melee-oriented characters...

      Comment

      • wobbly
        Prophet
        • May 2012
        • 2633

        #4
        Originally posted by Derakon
        So, you made it so that everyone gets ~1 blow/round in the early game? Is that the gist of it?

        That could get painful in the 500-1500' range for melee-oriented characters...
        The gist of it is I try something & see what it does. I actually play standard rollers from time to time, I'm well aware of how frustrating they can be. What I want to know is whether what I see when I look at the numbers translates to what I think it does.

        Comment

        • wobbly
          Prophet
          • May 2012
          • 2633

          #5
          Besides a quick look with a dwarf & half-troll warrior. The half-troll is at 2 dagger blows & the dwarf at 1.3. e.g. the half-troll is still preferencing the dagger though the gap is shrunk.

          Comment

          • wobbly
            Prophet
            • May 2012
            • 2633

            #6
            Derakon helpfully recommends just skipping 500'-1500' but we decide to kill Gorbag & Boldor along. We see some weak branded weapons along the way, they actually look a bit more like they make some sense.

            Look the thing is I'm not saying that 1 starting blow is better for the warrior. I'm saying I suspect a lot of this funiness is occuring because a gazillion starting blows was never intended. A game was designed. People started scumming the start. The scumming was automated in. Then a lot of people went off and pretended balance wasn't dramatically changed because "you could just start scum for it anyway". If you look through the design history you see this pattern of scuming being automated into the game to prevent scumming. Shrug. As far as I'm concerned you may as well completely redo blows as they were built for a game using a completely different set of numbers.

            Code:
             [Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump]
            
             Name   Experiment I Age             16          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
             Race   Crash-Dummy  Height        5'8"   STR:     17  +0  +3  +0  18/20
             Class  Warrior      Weight    10st 0lb   INT:     10  +0  -2  +2     10
             Title  Swashbuckler Turns used:          WIS:     10  +0  -2  +0      8
             HP     207/219      Game        131961   DEX:     18  +0  +2  +0  18/20
             SP     0/0          Standard     13180   CON:     10  +0  +2  +0     12
                                 Resting        270
            
             Level                 18    Armor      [24,+51]    Saving Throw     37%
             Cur Exp             3322                           Stealth         Poor
             Max Exp             3322    Melee       2d4,+15    Disarm - phys.   55%
             Adv Exp             3600    To-hit       50,+13    Disarm - magic   39%
                                         Blows      1.1/turn    Magic Devices     31
             Gold                1766                           Searching        31%
             Burden          143.8 lb    Shoot to-dam     +5    Infravision     0 ft
             Overweight        0.1 lb    To-hit        45,+7    Speed         Normal
             Max Depth    1050' (L21)    Shots        1/turn
            
             You are the property of the corporation. You have a square shaped
             head.
            
            
            
            rAcid:..+.+........ Nexus:.............
            rElec:........+.... Nethr:.............
            rFire:+............ Chaos:.............
            rCold:............. Disen:.............
            rPois:............. pFear:.............
            rLite:............. pBlnd:.............
            rDark:............. pConf:.............
            Sound:............. pStun:.............
            Shard:............. HLife:.............
            
            Regen:............. Stea.:.......+.....
              ESP:............. Sear.:.............
            Invis:............. Infra:.............
            FrAct:............. Tunn.:.............
            Feath:...........+. Speed:.............
            S.Dig:............. Blows:.............
            ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
             Fear:............. Might:.............
            Aggrv:............. Light:.............
            
            
              [Character Equipment]
            
            a) the Dagger 'Narthanc' (2d4) (+9,+12) [+10] {@A2 !!}
                 Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5)
                 
                 Branded with fire.
                 Provides resistance to fire.
                 Cannot be harmed by acid.
                 
                 When activated, it creates a fire bolt with damage 9d8.
                 Takes 9 to 16 turns to recharge.
                 Your chance of success is 90.9%
                 
                 Combat info:
                 1.1 blows/round.
                 With +3 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.3 blows
                 With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.3 blows
                 Average damage/round: 35.6 vs. creatures not resistant to fire,
                 and 23.7 vs. others.
                 
            b) a Long Bow (x3) (+3,+5)
                 Found lying on the floor at 600 feet (level 12)
                 
            c) a Ring of Acid [+7] {@A1 !!}
                 Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6)
                 
                 Provides resistance to acid.
                 
            d) a Ring of Protection [+14]
                 Found lying on the floor at 500 feet (level 10)
                 
            e) an Amulet of Resist Acid
                 Found lying on the floor of a special room at 1000 feet (level 20)
                 
                 Provides resistance to acid.
                 
            f) a Lantern (11558 turns)
                 Found lying on the floor at 250 feet (level 5)
                 
                 Cannot be harmed by fire.
                 Radius 2 light.
                 
            g) Soft Leather Armour [8,+3]
                 Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6)
                 
            h) a Cloak of Stealth [1,+4] <+2>
                 Found lying on the floor at 450 feet (level 9)
                 
                 +2 stealth.
                 
            i) a Leather Shield of Resist Lightning [8,+3]
                 Bought from a store
                 
                 Provides resistance to lightning.
                 
            j) a Metal Cap of Intelligence [3,+5] <+2>
                 Found lying on the floor at 600 feet (level 12)
                 
                 +2 intelligence.
                 Sustains intelligence.
                 
            l) a Pair of Iron Shod Boots of Slow Descent [4,+3]
                 Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6)
                 
                 Cannot be harmed by fire.
                 Feather Falling.  
                 
            
            
            
            
              [Character Inventory]
            
            a) 5 Flasks of oil
            b) 2 Potions of Cure Light Wounds {@q1}
            c) 8 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds {@q2}
            d) 3 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds {@q3}
            e) 6 Potions of Neutralize Poison
            f) 2 Potions of Speed
            g) 3 Potions of Resist Heat
            h) a Potion of Resist Poison
            i) 4 Potions of True Seeing
            j) 17 Scrolls of Phase Door {@r4}
            k) 4 Scrolls of Word of Recall
            l) a Rod of Curing
            m) a Wand of Stinking Cloud (7 charges)
            n) 2 Wands of Confuse Monster (11 charges)
            o) 2 Wands of Light (15 charges)
            p) a Wand of Wonder (8 charges)
                 Cannot be harmed by lightning.
                 
            q) a Staff of Cure Light Wounds (7 charges)
            r) a Staff of Teleportation (4 charges)
            s) a Jet Ring (+0,-5) <+2> {??}
                 Dropped by a master yeek at 1050 feet (level 21)
                 
                 You do not know the full extent of this item's powers.
                 +2 stealth.
                 
            t) a Pike of Slay Evil (2d5) (+4,+8)
                 Dropped by Gorbag, the Orc Captain at 1000 feet (level 20)
                 
                 Slays evil creatures.
                 
                 Combat info:
                 1.0 blow/round.
                 With +5 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster
                 With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
                 With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster
                 With +5 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
                 With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
                 Average damage/round: 24.1 vs. evil creatures, and 17.8 vs.
                 others.
                 
            
            
            
            
              [Character Quiver]
            
            0) 39 Rounded Pebbles (1d2) (+0,+0)
            1) 40 Iron Shots (1d4) (+0,+0)
            2) 15 Iron Shots (1d4) (+0,+0)
            
            
              [Home Inventory]
            
            a) 7 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger
            b) a Ring of Feather Falling
                 Bought from a store
                 
                 Feather Falling.  
                 
            c) a Scimitar of Slay Dragon (4d2) (+9,+5)
                 Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5)
                 
                 Slays dragons.
                 
                 Combat info:
                 1.0 blow/round.
                 With +4 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster
                 With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
                 With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster
                 With +4 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
                 With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
                 Average damage/round: 27.5 vs. dragons, and 14.7 vs. others.
                 
            
            
            [Player history]
                  Turn   Depth  Note
                     0      0'  Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.
                   247     50'  Reached level 2
                   672     50'  Reached level 3
                   774    300'  -- Note: ?deep descent
                   786    300'  Reached level 4
                   999    300'  Reached level 5
                  1104    300'  Reached level 6
                  1244    300'  Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's Dog
                  1338    300'  Reached level 7
                  1488    300'  Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's Dog
                  1735    250'  Reached level 8
                  2025    250'  Killed Bullroarer the Hobbit
                  2025    250'  Reached level 9
                  2027    250'  Found the Dagger 'Narthanc'
                  3397    250'  Reached level 10
                  5379    100'  Reached level 11
                  9701    350'  Reached level 12
                 11052    400'  Reached level 13
                 11243    450'  Killed Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman
                 11767    500'  Reached level 14
                 12184    500'  Reached level 15
                 12784    850'  Reached level 16
                 12951   1000'  Reached level 17
                 13069   1000'  Killed Gorbag, the Orc Captain
                 13069   1000'  Reached level 18
                 13121   1050'  Killed Boldor, King of the Yeeks
            
            
              [Options]
            
              [User interface]
            
            Use the roguelike command keyset             : no  (rogue_like_commands)
            Use sound                                    : no  (use_sound)
            Show damage player deals to monsters         : no  (show_damage)
            Use old target by default                    : no  (use_old_target)
            Always pickup items                          : no  (pickup_always)
            Always pickup items matching inventory       : yes (pickup_inven)
            Show flavors in object descriptions          : no  (show_flavors)
            Highlight target with cursor                 : yes (show_target)
            Highlight player with cursor between turns   : no  (highlight_player)
            Disturb whenever viewable monster moves      : yes (disturb_near)
            Show walls as solid blocks                   : no  (solid_walls)
            Show walls with shaded background            : no  (hybrid_walls)
            Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow       : no  (view_yellow_light)
            Color: Shimmer multi-colored things          : no  (animate_flicker)
            Center map continuously                      : no  (center_player)
            Color: Show unique monsters in purple        : no  (purple_uniques)
            Automatically clear '-more-' prompts         : no  (auto_more)
            Color: Player color indicates % hit points   : yes (hp_changes_color)
            Allow mouse clicks to move the player        : yes (mouse_movement)
            Notify on object recharge                    : no  (notify_recharge)
            Show effective speed as multiplier           : no  (effective_speed)
            
              [Birth]
            
            Generate a new, random artifact set          : no  (birth_randarts)
            Generate connected stairs                    : yes (birth_connect_stairs)
            Force player descent (never make up stairs)  : no  (birth_force_descend)
            Word of Recall has no effect                 : no  (birth_no_recall)
            Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (birth_no_artifacts)
            Stack objects on the floor                   : yes (birth_stacking)
            Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (birth_lose_arts)
            Show level feelings                          : yes (birth_feelings)
            Increase gold drops but disable selling      : yes (birth_no_selling)
            Start with a kit of useful gear              : no  (birth_start_kit)
            Monsters learn from their mistakes           : no  (birth_ai_learn)
            Know all runes on birth                      : no  (birth_know_runes)
            Know all flavors on birth                    : no  (birth_know_flavors)
            Persistent levels (experimental)             : no  (birth_levels_persist)

            Comment

            • Pete Mack
              Prophet
              • Apr 2007
              • 6883

              #7
              In 3.0, getting 3 or 4 blows with a dagger, then enchanting it as quickly as possible to (+7,+7) was standard practice. Thancs weren't as good (1/2 the melee bonuses makes for 18 less damage per turn, without a huge stack of enchantment scrolls.) And thancs in the early levels weren't that common.

              One other issue: purchased stats didnt get better than 16/16/16. Additional pointa in a melee stat were very expensive.

              It's not just a matter of getting a thanc easily now.

              Comment

              • wobbly
                Prophet
                • May 2012
                • 2633

                #8
                Thanks Pete, a lot of people here were around longer then me, so it's nice to get some figures.

                Here's the earliest character dump I can find for a low level warrior



                He's hacked in the dump so I can't be sure but it shows a low level half-troll warrior with main-gauche & .... 1 blow.
                Last edited by wobbly; July 21, 2018, 04:52.

                Comment

                • wobbly
                  Prophet
                  • May 2012
                  • 2633

                  #9
                  Ok by 2.9 I'm seeing 3 blows rapier/trident and 4 blows dagger. So perhaps the warrior lost an extra blow in 3. on but somewhere between Moria and 2.9 it gained 2 or 3 in the early game. It's not surprising it's coasting at this stage.

                  Edit: ok I'll leave it here and think. Think I've seen about as much as this is worth.
                  Last edited by wobbly; July 21, 2018, 06:20.

                  Comment

                  • Derakon
                    Prophet
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 9022

                    #10
                    To be clear, I wasn't trying to make a value judgement, just making a guess at how the game would play as a warrior with 1 blow/round pre-stat-gain.

                    As a kid playing 2.4 frog-knows, I had a High-Elf Ranger (of course...) that got an early Trident of Ulmo drop from a player ghost, somewhere in the 500' part of the game. I'm pretty sure I got multiple blows with it, despite having to rely on 2.4's primitive autoroller (or did it not even have that...?). Granted that Ulmo does give a DEX bonus and is (or was, anyway) remarkably light for a trident, that still suggests that multiple blows weren't too far out of reach even in the first versions of Angband.

                    Certainly the conventional wisdom on rec.games.roguelike.angband in the 2.9.x days (and possibly earlier) was to max STR/DEX and get a (1d6!) whip. We had long arguments about whether this made sense. Someone called a 1d4 dagger with a +15 damage bonus "a pie in the face of reality". Oangband combat was developed largely as a reaction to how nonsensical Vanilla combat was.

                    Comment

                    • wobbly
                      Prophet
                      • May 2012
                      • 2633

                      #11
                      Nah all good. It's.. look I'm a shift worker and if I go without sleep for long enough I get neurotic and snappy. Normally I have the sense to control my snark, my apologises.

                      I'll take a proper look at it in a day or two, when I've had actual sleep.

                      Comment

                      • Pete Mack
                        Prophet
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 6883

                        #12
                        No, there was no blow lost in v3. Some races got 4 blows (HE, Dunadan, and Half-orc with no points in CON.) It's possible that hobbit got no more than 2.

                        Comment

                        • Derakon
                          Prophet
                          • Dec 2009
                          • 9022

                          #13
                          S'alright, no offense taken. I'm glad you're doing a proper investigation into these things!

                          Comment

                          • wobbly
                            Prophet
                            • May 2012
                            • 2633

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Pete Mack
                            No, there was no blow lost in v3. Some races got 4 blows (HE, Dunadan, and Half-orc with no points in CON.) It's possible that hobbit got no more than 2.
                            I meant the top weapons compared to a paladin. Different experiment: Those are halved weapon weights (a 2.5lb spear), with a mult of 3, and 3lb minimum (in the middle of the 2 lb rapier & the 4 lb shortsword). So this warrior should be able to max. blows with a 20% heavier weapon (old weights) then a normal warrior. Paladin is mult 3 and 3.5lb minimum, Rogue mult 2 and 2lbs, everything else mult 2 and 3.5lbs. I haven't tried the others. Note the rogue and ranger are essentially the same as they were (x2 / 2). (A rogue with identical stats would have the same blows with a rapier as a warrior with a rapier/spear)

                            Code:
                              [Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump]
                            
                             Name   Test         Age             25          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
                             Race   Half-Troll   Height       6'10"   STR:     18  +4  +3  +0  18/70
                             Class  Warrior      Weight    20st 8lb   INT:     10  -4  -2  +0      4
                             Title  Swordsman    Turns used:          WIS:     10  -2  -2  +0      6
                             HP     112/137      Game         75656   DEX:     17  -4  +2  +0     15
                             SP     0/0          Standard      7678   CON:     10  +3  +2  +0     15
                                                 Resting        206
                            
                             Level                 13    Armor       [16,+2]    Saving Throw     23%
                             Cur Exp             1272                           Stealth          Bad
                             Max Exp             1272    Melee        1d6,+7    Disarm - phys.   40%
                             Adv Exp             1320    To-hit        49,+3    Disarm - magic   27%
                                                         Blows      3.1/turn    Magic Devices     19
                             Gold                1678                           Searching        41%
                             Burden          122.8 lb    Shoot to-dam     +0    Infravision    30 ft
                             Overweight      -57.1 lb    To-hit        34,+2    Speed         Normal
                             Max Depth     650' (L13)    Shots        1/turn
                            
                             Your mother was a Stone-Troll Warrior.  You have blue-bloodshot eyes,
                             mangy dark purple hair, and white leprous skin.
                            
                            
                            
                            rAcid:............. Nexus:.............
                            rElec:............. Nethr:.............
                            rFire:............. Chaos:.............
                            rCold:........+.... Disen:.............
                            rPois:............. pFear:.............
                            rLite:............. pBlnd:.............
                            rDark:............. pConf:.............
                            Sound:............. pStun:.............
                            Shard:............. HLife:.............
                            
                            Regen:............+ Stea.:.............
                              ESP:............. Sear.:..++.........
                            Invis:............. Infra:............+
                            FrAct:............. Tunn.:.............
                            Feath:............. Speed:.............
                            S.Dig:............. Blows:.............
                            ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
                             Fear:............. Might:.............
                            Aggrv:............. Light:.....+.......
                            
                            
                              [Character Equipment]
                            
                            a) a Spear (1d6) (+1,+3)
                                 Dropped by a pseudo-dragon at 500 feet (level 10)
                                 
                                 Combat info:
                                 3.1 blows/round.
                                 With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 3.3 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 3.4 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 32.7.
                                 
                            b) a Short Bow (x2) (+0,+0)
                                 Found lying on the floor at 350 feet (level 7)
                                 
                            c) a Ring of Searching <+2>
                                 Found lying on the floor at 350 feet (level 7)
                                 
                                 +2 searching skill.
                                 
                            d) a Ring of Searching <+3>
                                 Found lying on the floor of a special room at 400 feet (level 8)
                                 
                                 +3 searching skill.
                                 
                            f) a Lantern of Brightness (14953 turns) <+1>
                                 Found lying on the floor at 350 feet (level 7)
                                 
                                 +1 light.
                                 Cannot be harmed by fire.
                                 Radius 3 light.
                                 
                            g) Soft Leather Armour [8,-3]
                                 An inheritance from your family
                                 
                            h) a Cloak [1,+0] {!d, ignore}
                                 Bought from a store
                                 
                            i) a Wicker Shield of Resist Cold [2,+2]
                                 Dropped by a scruffy looking hobbit at 200 feet (level 4)
                                 
                                 Provides resistance to cold.
                                 
                            k) a Set of Leather Gloves [1,-1]
                                 Dropped by an acolyte at 100 feet (level 2)
                                 
                            l) a Pair of Iron Shod Boots [4,+3]
                                 Found lying on the floor of a special room at 400 feet (level 8)
                                 
                                 Cannot be harmed by fire.
                                 
                            
                            
                            
                            
                              [Character Inventory]
                            
                            a) 3 Mushrooms of Second Sight
                            b) 10 Potions of Cure Light Wounds
                            c) 8 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds
                            d) 3 Potions of Speed
                            e) 2 Potions of Heroism
                            f) 3 Potions of Berserk Strength
                            g) 3 Potions of Boldness
                            h) 2 Potions of Resist Heat
                            i) 2 Potions of Resist Cold
                            j) 13 Scrolls of Phase Door
                            k) 2 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger
                            l) a Rod of Curing
                            m) a Wand of Light (9 charges)
                            n) 2 Wands of Stone to Mud (8 charges)
                            o) 3 Wands of Wonder (37 charges)
                                 Cannot be harmed by lightning.
                                 
                            p) a Staff of Cure Light Wounds (8 charges)
                            q) 2 Staves of Light (37 charges)
                            r) a Lance (2d8) (+3,+7) {??}
                                 Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 400 feet (level 8)
                                 
                                 You do not know the full extent of this item's powers.
                                 
                                 Combat info:
                                 1.0 blows/round.
                                 With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 21.7.
                                 
                            s) a Mace (2d4) (+0,+0)
                                 Dropped by a brigand at 400 feet (level 8)
                                 
                                 Combat info:
                                 1.6 blows/round.
                                 With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 2.0 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 2.0 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 15.1.
                                 
                            t) a Maul (4d4) (+0,+0)
                                 Found lying on the floor at 350 feet (level 7)
                                 
                                 Combat info:
                                 1.1 blows/round.
                                 With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.3 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 1.3 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 16.7.
                                 
                            
                            
                            
                            
                              [Character Quiver]
                            
                            0) 22 Bolts (1d5) (+0,+0)
                            1) 19 Arrows (1d4) (+0,+0)
                                 Combat info:
                                 Hits targets up to 100 feet away.
                                 Average damage/round: 5.
                                 35% chance of breaking upon contact.
                                 
                            2) 35 Rounded Pebbles (1d2) (+0,+0)
                            3) 19 Rounded Pebbles (1d2) (+4,+3) {??}
                                 You do not know the full extent of this item's powers.
                                 
                            4) 24 Rounded Pebbles (1d2) (+6,+4)
                            
                            
                              [Home Inventory]
                            
                            a) 3 Rations of Food
                            b) 4 Flasks of oil
                            c) a Staff of Detect Invisible (20 charges)
                            d) a Dagger (1d4) (+0,+0)
                                 An inheritance from your family
                                 
                                 Combat info:
                                 3.1 blows/round.
                                 With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 3.3 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 3.4 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 20.2.
                                 
                            e) a Main Gauche (1d5) (+0,+0)
                                 Combat info:
                                 3.1 blows/round.
                                 With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 3.3 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 3.4 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 21.8.
                                 
                            f) a Pike (2d5) (+2,+1)
                                 Bought from a store
                                 
                                 Combat info:
                                 1.3 blows/round.
                                 With +2 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.6 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 1.6 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 14.7.
                                 
                            g) a Broad Axe (2d6) (+0,+0)
                                 Bought from a store
                                 
                                 Combat info:
                                 1.3 blows/round.
                                 With +2 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.6 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 1.6 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 14.7.
                                 
                            h) a Whip (1d3) (+0,+0)
                                 Bought from a store
                                 
                                 Combat info:
                                 3.1 blows/round.
                                 With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 3.3 blows
                                 With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 3.4 blows
                                 Average damage/round: 18.7.
                                 
                            
                            
                            [Player history]
                                  Turn   Depth  Note
                                     0      0'  Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.
                                   251     50'  Reached level 2
                                   815    100'  Reached level 3
                                  1226    150'  Reached level 4
                                  1427    150'  Reached level 5
                                  1520    150'  Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's Dog
                                  1520    150'  Reached level 6
                                  1937    200'  Reached level 7
                                  2413    300'  Reached level 8
                                  2818    350'  Reached level 9
                                  2859    350'  Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's Dog
                                  3342    400'  Reached level 10
                                  3930    500'  Reached level 11
                                  4375    650'  Reached level 12
                                  6992    350'  Reached level 13
                                  7656    400'  Killed Bullroarer the Hobbit
                            
                            
                              [Options]
                            
                              [User interface]
                            
                            Use the roguelike command keyset             : no  (rogue_like_commands)
                            Use sound                                    : no  (use_sound)
                            Show damage player deals to monsters         : no  (show_damage)
                            Use old target by default                    : no  (use_old_target)
                            Always pickup items                          : no  (pickup_always)
                            Always pickup items matching inventory       : yes (pickup_inven)
                            Show flavors in object descriptions          : no  (show_flavors)
                            Highlight target with cursor                 : yes (show_target)
                            Highlight player with cursor between turns   : no  (highlight_player)
                            Disturb whenever viewable monster moves      : yes (disturb_near)
                            Show walls as solid blocks                   : no  (solid_walls)
                            Show walls with shaded background            : no  (hybrid_walls)
                            Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow       : no  (view_yellow_light)
                            Color: Shimmer multi-colored things          : no  (animate_flicker)
                            Center map continuously                      : no  (center_player)
                            Color: Show unique monsters in purple        : no  (purple_uniques)
                            Automatically clear '-more-' prompts         : no  (auto_more)
                            Color: Player color indicates % hit points   : yes (hp_changes_color)
                            Allow mouse clicks to move the player        : yes (mouse_movement)
                            Notify on object recharge                    : no  (notify_recharge)
                            Show effective speed as multiplier           : no  (effective_speed)
                            
                              [Birth]
                            
                            Generate a new, random artifact set          : no  (birth_randarts)
                            Generate connected stairs                    : yes (birth_connect_stairs)
                            Force player descent (never make up stairs)  : no  (birth_force_descend)
                            Word of Recall has no effect                 : no  (birth_no_recall)
                            Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (birth_no_artifacts)
                            Stack objects on the floor                   : yes (birth_stacking)
                            Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (birth_lose_arts)
                            Show level feelings                          : yes (birth_feelings)
                            Increase gold drops but disable selling      : yes (birth_no_selling)
                            Start with a kit of useful gear              : yes (birth_start_kit)
                            Monsters learn from their mistakes           : no  (birth_ai_learn)
                            Know all runes on birth                      : no  (birth_know_runes)
                            Know all flavors on birth                    : no  (birth_know_flavors)
                            Persistent levels (experimental)             : no  (birth_levels_persist)
                            Last edited by wobbly; July 21, 2018, 18:46.

                            Comment

                            • wobbly
                              Prophet
                              • May 2012
                              • 2633

                              #15
                              Oh hey didn't realise this was a thing:

                              * Check if a monster is debuffed in such a way as to make a critical
                              * hit more likely.
                              */
                              static bool is_debuffed(const struct monster *monster)
                              {
                              return monster->m_timed[MON_TMD_CONF] > 0 ||
                              monster->m_timed[MON_TMD_HOLD] > 0 ||
                              monster->m_timed[MON_TMD_STUN] > 0;

                              Comment

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