3.3.0 Hobbit Rogue / Death

[CliffStamp]

v4 is using a "rune-based" approach to ID, where each item ability like rFire or Slay Evil corresponds to a rune, and it's the runes you identify, not the item. Thus eventually you'll learn all the runes and automatically know how every item you find works. It's still a work in progress though -- and it doesn't affect how consumable items are identified.

That is very nice both in sensibility/logic as well as game play, how are you working that with squelch, could you squelch anything not +2 attacks for example?

[CliffStamp]

You do RP angband but you do not enjoy it...

There are aspects I could see improvement, and many aspects I never enjoyed. I never enjoyed manual haggling for example, no more in RL than in the game. But this doesn't keep me from playing it, I doubt there is anyone who thinks the same is perfect and could not be changed in any way for the better.

[CliffStamp]

I really dislike mechanics where the game is easier if you are weaker. Basically, I object to any situation where there is a disadvantage to becoming stronger.

Angband has this already, kill a high level monster at cl 1 and at cl 50, there is a huge difference in the reward. I am not arguing that people should be penalized if they grind, I am saying you should be rewarded if you do not. There is however a risk in making the reward counter balance the actual purpose in the first place.

If for example you altered the item generation so that the chance of a ros dropping was linked to your char speed / dl then it would smooth out item drops and both prevent stalling as well as extreme early luck leading to an over powered character and challenged removed.

[Derakon]

Angband has this already, kill a high level monster at cl 1 and at cl 50, there is a huge difference in the reward. I am not arguing that people should be penalized if they grind, I am saying you should be rewarded if you do not. There is however a risk in making the reward counter balance the actual purpose in the first place.

If for example you altered the item generation so that the chance of a ros dropping was linked to your char speed / dl then it would smooth out item drops and both prevent stalling as well as extreme early luck leading to an over powered character and challenged removed.

As a general rule, I'm opposed to things external to the player changing because the player has changed. Amount of experience rewarded is an internal attribute -- it makes some sense that you get diminishing returns on experience as you become more experienced. You're less likely to have seen something novel while slaughtering your 500th orc than when you slowly whittled your first one to death. Similarly, a young character has a lot more to learn about the anatomy of, say, bile demons than an older one does.

What the stores stock, though, is an external attribute -- the stores don't inherently have anything to do with the player. Now, it's not impossible to create links, like variants that allow the player to place specific orders, but those links absolutely have to be explicit -- the store should not simply start magically stocking better stuff just because the player is stronger. That's on a similar level with the games where monsters level up as the player does; it's just lazy design.

That is very nice both in sensibility/logic as well as game play, how are you working that with squelch, could you squelch anything not +2 attacks for example?

This is a big part of why it's still a work in progress; we haven't yet figured out a good UI for squelch. Individual runes can be squelched, but you have to do it manually through the knowledge screens (i.e. you can't do it from the menu that pops up when you squelch a specific item), and there's no way to do pval-based squelching.

[fizzix]

Angband has this already, kill a high level monster at cl 1 and at cl 50, there is a huge difference in the reward. I am not arguing that people should be penalized if they grind, I am saying you should be rewarded if you do not. There is however a risk in making the reward counter balance the actual purpose in the first place.

This is sort of true. I'd favor changing it to a graduated system so that you if you kill something that's worth 10 XP at clevel 1 and you only need 2 XP to advance, you get 2 XP at the clevel 1 rate and the rest at the clevel 2 rate. However, this tends to be such a minor issue it's almost definitely not worth the coding hassle. (There is the guy that stair-scummed to kill an Erinyes to go from clevel 1 to 32 in one go, but besides that...)

[Nick]

like variants that allow the player to place specific orders

It's OK, you don't have to mention FAangband by name - I know what you meant.

And no, I don't ever get tired of doing this

[CliffStamp]

What the stores stock, though, is an external attribute -- the stores don't inherently have anything to do with the player. Now, it's not impossible to create links, like variants that allow the player to place specific orders, but those links absolutely have to be explicit -- the store should not simply start magically stocking better stuff just because the player is stronger.

Well I would argue it would make sense that should happen if you are going to argue sense/logic. If I was a shop keeper and noticed that there was a dude in town who was getting richer and getting serious kit upgrades then I would start investing in heavy inventory and specifically asking them what they wanted and not stock junk they would not buy. Especially if I knew they had more money than they could spend and I could charge insane margins and they would still buy particular items.

But the game is filled with odd things which are not there because they make sense but because it enhances game play. Does it make any sense that you can kill a lowly snaga who is following an orc captain and he drops some great item which he should easily have been used to make himself king of all snagas. What about monsters who are holding on to junk but who are right next to extremely powerful items which they are ignoring for some reason. Or you kill a monster who is holding on to items which could have saved them or could have killed you if they used them?

While I appreciate an argument for realism, I don't think it should dominate actual game play and you really have to be consistent in application to apply it at all.

[Magnate]

That is very nice both in sensibility/logic as well as game play, how are you working that with squelch, could you squelch anything not +2 attacks for example?

You can currently squelch anything with +attacks, but you can't yet distinguish between +1 attack and +2attacks ("pval squelch"). That is the ultimate intention though, yes.

v4's ego items are completely different and much more random, so if you squelched +attacks, an item with +attacks would only be squelched if you had chosen to squelch all its other characteristics (or it didn't have any others). So for example if you had squelched SLAY_ORC but not BRAND_COLD, you would squelch a weapon with +attacks and SLAY_ORC but not one with +attacks and BRAND_COLD.

[Magnate]

Well I would argue it would make sense that should happen if you are going to argue sense/logic. If I was a shop keeper and noticed that there was a dude in town who was getting richer and getting serious kit upgrades then I would start investing in heavy inventory and specifically asking them what they wanted and not stock junk they would not buy. Especially if I knew they had more money than they could spend and I could charge insane margins and they would still buy particular items.

But the game is filled with odd things which are not there because they make sense but because it enhances game play. Does it make any sense that you can kill a lowly snaga who is following an orc captain and he drops some great item which he should easily have been used to make himself king of all snagas. What about monsters who are holding on to junk but who are right next to extremely powerful items which they are ignoring for some reason. Or you kill a monster who is holding on to items which could have saved them or could have killed you if they used them?

While I appreciate an argument for realism, I don't think it should dominate actual game play and you really have to be consistent in application to apply it at all.

I think this is fair enough - your argument for storekeepers stocking better stuff as @ levels up works for me (at least as well as any other arguments in favour of stores stocking better stuff). I'd prefer that @ had to invest money in the stores as well, mind.

This would require some coding - at the very least an additional field in stores.txt giving a min clev at which things could be stocked (for consumables), and probably an additional field of magicness for wearables. This would work well in v4 because you could specify the number of affixes on an item to be stocked. With more sophistication you could even specify affixes (e.g. Mithril items).

This all presumes we stick with random stock though. Ordering specific items needs code from a variant that has this (I'm sure there is one, I just can't remember the name).

[CliffStamp]

So for example if you had squelched SLAY_ORC but not BRAND_COLD, you would squelch a weapon with +attacks and SLAY_ORC but not one with +attacks and BRAND_COLD.

That is truly excellent.

[CliffStamp]

I'd prefer that @ had to invest money in the stores as well, mind.

That is another way to use money, outside of pure ordering possibly investing directly. Or another way, the more you spend/sell there the more money they have to buy more objects so better items start stocking. This both makes sense and mechanically as well. It is a bit abusive scumming wise, but if you are willing to scum you can break almost any mechanic unless you hard code against it (i.e. monster level scales with cl, monsters generated scale with equip/power). Thus if you actually farm to get CL30 and full base R before DL 10, monsters are being generates at DL 11 with higher frequency of up to DL 60 and +base attacks. This though is really not how Angband proper ever was, it always allowed over levelling / munchkin behaviour if desired (auto roller).

[saarn]

Thus if you actually farm to get CL30 and full base R before DL 10, monsters are being generates at DL 11 with higher frequency of up to DL 60 and +base attacks. This though is really not how Angband proper ever was, it always allowed over levelling / munchkin behaviour if desired (auto roller).

couldn't you do a dual-limit on store stocking based not only on CLVL but either max dungeon level or average dungeon level? This would at least prevent grinding low depths until your endgame equipment shows up in the stores. Alternately, preventing items being brought in on order or for investment that the player hasn't already identified could provide some reasonable control.

[debo]

Alternately, everyone could just play Sil

plz no rage ~~~~


(that's actually pretty fun...)

[CliffStamp]

This is an example of what I am talking about :

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8015

Note half a million gold but the final fight can not be completed without resorting to either extreme gameplay (multiple sea of runes). Now there was nothing stopping Pete from beetlejuicing to collect genocide/destruction but I don't see this as ideal game play as it is just repeated events until you strike the right random drop. One may would simple be to "deposit" items for use by future characters which could be quested for (random unique picked by the rng).

[fizzix]

This is an example of what I am talking about :

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8015

Note half a million gold but the final fight can not be completed without resorting to either extreme gameplay (multiple sea of runes). Now there was nothing stopping Pete from beetlejuicing to collect genocide/destruction but I don't see this as ideal game play as it is just repeated events until you strike the right random drop. One may would simple be to "deposit" items for use by future characters which could be quested for (random unique picked by the rng).

The problem with this character is lack of PB9 which has banish evil and word of destruction. With those two you can handle summons fairly easily as a priest. Should those be available from the shops? History isn't displayed so I have no idea how many uniques were still around.

Unmaxed stats also seem to be an issue, and that's certainly something that may still need some more work, although it is different now than in 3.1.0