3.3.0 Hobbit Rogue / Death

[Starhawk]

Did someone call for more of this in Angband?



Because I am ALL FOR THAT.

[LostTemplar]

There is another minor issue with roleplaying in angband.

Despite having different classes/races, all characters are "warriors", the only possible way to win is to kill a big monster, there are no rogue way to win for example.

This cannot be fixed and will frustrate RP oriented players.

[CliffStamp]

... there are no rogue way to win for example.

I don't see how this argument can hold, I have RP's Angband almost since the beginning. As a rogue for example the tendency is to steal much more so than kill, so the focus is on using stealth, teleport and when necessary aggravation to move monsters away from items rather than simply killing them. I would not for example rely on genocide/destruction with a rogue even if they were available as that would be for a priest/mage. This is just a playstyle of course, Angband doesn't really force it, or even reward it - but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

[buzzkill]

The problem as I see it is if you make the items priced such so that they are purchasable by the divers, then they'll be a trivial purchase for any non-diver. If you price them for a slower player, then they're useless for the diver because they're too expensive.

I think that you'll find that those who dive (sanely) are unlikely to be big (item) shoppers and vice-versa. I see divers as pseudo-ironman players that view shops as a convenience for obtaining consumables that the RNG is being stingy with, not as a necessity. Balance prices toward slower players, price stuff on the high side, for optimum fun. I always thought that boosting gold drops (to the degree that they were) when no selling was introduced was a mistake. Just my opinion.

Anecdotal story. In my current DAJ game I just recalled specifically to obtain ID for half a dozen un-ID'd items in my pack in search of some much needed FA. The magic shop had no ID for sale. I view that as a challenge, not as broken.

Continued rant. This genre would be better off if maintainers viewed Vanilla and the various variants as games to be played, rather than as games to be beaten. Sil's success is based on more than it's balance and mechanics. It's challenge is refreshing to many players who aren't getting it from oook's mainstream RL's. Ditto Steamband, untouched old school. Who doesn't like Steam.

[CliffStamp]

I think I found out your problem: Angband is not RPG, don't play it like that.

Timo, I have been playing Angband before it was called Angband and it is kind of absurd to tell me how to play it.

You have argued against diving since the discussions started on usenet complaining that you find it boring and you like beetlejuicing, that is fine, but it is kind of odd to claim yours is the only correct view. When Lev and later Eddie started posting very specific ways to maximize utility of turn count they did this as they enjoyed the challenge.

There are many ways to play roguelikes, one of the most extremes would be Lev who would delight in breaking the mechanics and abusing scumming to extremes such as the time when he abused polymorph items in Kamband to full equip, complete max stats, and CL without fighting anything and then complete to win in real time in under an hour total.

As people would fix the exploits Lev would just move to another variant, or find another to exploit in that variant. Many people not only enjoyed reading his exploits, but it lead to advances in the games, balancing and many people also adopted elements of his play style, though usually not as extreme. As an example, the Zang nightmare wins are heavily scummed.

[CliffStamp]

The problem as I see it is if you make the items priced such so that they are purchasable by the divers, then they'll be a trivial purchase for any non-diver.

The algorithm can be cl/dl based or even equipment based, unique killed based.

[CliffStamp]

He wants a mechanism whereby fast players don't have to scum/grind/beetlejuice for healing (or damage, or monster control) items - hence the store suggestions.

Yes. It is extremely easy to drop down, stair bounce/use detection, and generate items - but that is kind of silly playstyle wise to force it. It is not like there is any risk. Of course you can fix this with persistent levels (Heng) but that would be such a major change that it would be a hard call to say that is still Angband.

It's a *lot* of work to get things right, effort which would be better focused on other aspects of the game.

That is the core issue, there is limited time/effort to develop, I don't want to give the idea I am making demands, as noted before that is kind of retarded against a volunteer organization.

I do really enjoy now how the items react to use and you learn about them, the only problem is late game high item drops as it isn't like you can take each item wield it and fool around so you are forced to rely on identify.

There are also a few items (curse weapon) that prevent reading of scrolls unless you are going to perform item swaps, etc. which is a bit tedious. I would like to see the reaction to a blasted MoD of Fury though, just not from me.

Did the slay angel/holy/good flag ever get implemented?

[Derakon]

Yes. It is extremely easy to drop down, stair bounce/use detection, and generate items - but that is kind of silly playstyle wise to force it. It is not like there is any risk. Of course you can fix this with persistent levels (Heng) but that would be such a major change that it would be a hard call to say that is still Angband.

I think we've generally come to the agreement that if you want to stairscum, then that's your business, and we aren't going to make any particular attempt to discourage it (beyond social pressure to encourage players to use the disconnected stairs option).

Assuming you don't stairscum, is it still extremely easy to find the items you need when you're at the bottom of the dungeon and hopelessly underequipped?

I do really enjoy now how the items react to use and you learn about them, the only problem is late game high item drops as it isn't like you can take each item wield it and fool around so you are forced to rely on identify.

v4 is using a "rune-based" approach to ID, where each item ability like rFire or Slay Evil corresponds to a rune, and it's the runes you identify, not the item. Thus eventually you'll learn all the runes and automatically know how every item you find works. It's still a work in progress though -- and it doesn't affect how consumable items are identified.

Did the slay angel/holy/good flag ever get implemented?

I don't recall ever hearing of this being wanted. One of the main reasons ainu/angels are so tough is that they have no weaknesses.

[fizzix]

Yes. It is extremely easy to drop down, stair bounce/use detection, and generate items - but that is kind of silly playstyle wise to force it. It is not like there is any risk. Of course you can fix this with persistent levels (Heng) but that would be such a major change that it would be a hard call to say that is still Angband.

Oh! here's a problem. You're playing with connected stairs. Turn that crap off. Connected stairs will always allow a munchkin play style. Cheat death is a better option than connected stairs.

Did the slay angel/holy/good flag ever get implemented?

No, and there hasn't been mention of it in a long time. I think people like the idea of the A monsters being resistant to everything.

[Magnate]

Yes. It is extremely easy to drop down, stair bounce/use detection, and generate items - but that is kind of silly playstyle wise to force it. It is not like there is any risk.

Indeed - and gradual nerfs have been made to things like Alter Reality / Clairvoyance for precisely this reason. So unfortunately the game is moving in the opposite direction to your preference - but I console myself with the fact that you are easily half a dozen standard deviations beyond the mean skill level, so there won't be many people as frustrated as yourself by the inability to buy what they need at dl98 ;-)

I do really enjoy now how the items react to use and you learn about them, the only problem is late game high item drops as it isn't like you can take each item wield it and fool around so you are forced to rely on identify.

Yes, this is true - ID by use has come a long way and is viable, but endgame ID is still sometimes frustrating/tedious. One day someone will submit a pull request to add NPP's mass ID effect.

There are also a few items (curse weapon) that prevent reading of scrolls unless you are going to perform item swaps, etc. which is a bit tedious. I would like to see the reaction to a blasted MoD of Fury though, just not from me.

It happened quite recently, and led to renewed calls to get rid of the Curse Weapon/Armour scrolls. I think they might be gone from 3.4, I'm not sure.

Did the slay angel/holy/good flag ever get implemented?

No, though there is an open ticket to add more monster race types and corresponding slays. But this is now something that would get tried in v4 first (though that doesn't mean it couldn't go into 3.5 if the timing is right).

[LostTemplar]

I have RP's Angband almost since the beginning.

You do RP angband but you do not enjoy it, at least it seems from your posts, that you do not. I am just saying, that it is not a bug, angband is deliberately made in such a way, that RP is not very much fun, unless your RP style is to kill every monster on level, and maybe kill every unique in the game. In your words angband forces you to grind, it is the game of grinding.

[fizzix]

The algorithm can be cl/dl based or even equipment based, unique killed based.

I really dislike mechanics where the game is easier if you are weaker. Basically, I object to any situation where there is a disadvantage to becoming stronger.

Yes, this is true - ID by use has come a long way and is viable, but endgame ID is still sometimes frustrating/tedious. One day someone will submit a pull request to add NPP's mass ID effect.

I'll do this after 3.4 is out the door. I'll replace alter reality(?) and detect enchantment with a mass ID, and make the rods of identify be mass identify. It will fully identify all objects in LoS. It will be called *identify* just to confuse old-school players.

It happened quite recently, and led to renewed calls to get rid of the Curse Weapon/Armour scrolls. I think they might be gone from 3.4, I'm not sure.

Sadly they're still there. I'm completely ok with removing them though.

[Derakon]

I'll do this after 3.4 is out the door. I'll replace alter reality(?) and detect enchantment with a mass ID, and make the rods of identify be mass identify. It will fully identify all objects in LoS. It will be called *identify* just to confuse old-school players.

Careful with that "everything in LOS" rule -- it could possibly result in lost artifacts in the edge case. If we want to completely trivialize ID then we could as easily just make it ID everything in a radius-4 circle and have no recharge time to speak of (in the case of the rod).

Otherwise, sounds good.

[CliffStamp]

Oh! here's a problem. You're playing with connected stairs.

I was playing without connected stairs before it was an option. I simply never went back up when I went down. The only time I have ever done this was in Heng playing a pure Beserker (non Wraith/Amberite) as stairs are your only escape. Even then though I would only use stairs to escape before engaging, once a fight started then it had to be finished. I did think it was a bit unBeserker like to run at all and made a few attempts to run refusing to use stairs (and again no Wraith/Amberite) but always lucked out with the Destroyer/Unicorn spazzing disintegrate+ubersummon. Even if you can drain, eventually you will be dragon locked as the level will just fill up. Plus you can luck out and hit one of the wide open levels which does not even need disintegrate to cause a problem.

[Nick]

But if I've understood Cliff correctly, his main issue is a dislike of this very argument. He wants a mechanism whereby fast players don't have to scum/grind/beetlejuice for healing (or damage, or monster control) items - hence the store suggestions.

If endgame consumables are really the problem, the FA store ordering mechanic deals with that pretty well - once you have found one of an item, you can order it and it will be added to the stock list.