Sil is too hard

[debo]

I think Sil is great and part of the reason that people are finding it hard is that no one has beat it yet. Once we know that victory(and we have a formula for winning like we do for Angband) is possible people will start winning a lot more often and people will be like "Sil is too easy".

There was a winner on the ladder -- Sindar to boot -- but it's hard to tell because 1.0 dumps didn't identify winners in a way that could be recognized for highlighting on the grid.

[Satyr]

There was a winner on the ladder -- Sindar to boot -- but it's hard to tell because 1.0 dumps didn't identify winners in a way that could be recognized for highlighting on the grid.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12335

I'm currently trying to repeat that in 1.0.1, but so far all I have is a growing heap of dead Sindar

[sethos]

Actually - I think that the start would be a lot easier if a piece of armor of some kind were guaranteed in the starting room - a start with even leather boots or leather armor would be much nicer to the starting player - I've had games where all I got were bad potions on the first two levels!

Of course, you could build a smith at that point, but meh.

[ekolis]

Speaking of smithing, I thought I heard that there's a guaranteed forge at DL2 / 100ft. But I haven't seen any forges in a while, and I have been exploring levels. Is something wrong or do the forges tend to be hidden behind secret doors or something?

[Satyr]

It's always on the second level you visit, regardless of depth. So the easiest way to get to a forge is takeing the up stairs on 50' that will return you to a 50' level with a guaranteed forge. (But you won't get very much exp on 50', so in that case you should better buy all smithing abilities you want at the start)

[decoy]

From my experience I think there is a bit of truth in this, but it's not nearly so extreme as you suggest. If I'm playing a combat-oriented Noldor, I think perhaps 80% of my characters reach 500ft, and some of those that die needn't have done. Of course sometimes you do just have bad luck, but I would guess that quite a few of the deaths you mention are avoidable -- but perhaps you're not sufficiently invested in the character at that stage to be careful about avoiding them.

Sometimes I try a character who should have a good mid-to-late game, but hasn't yet got their skills/abilities/equipment together and is a bit weak on combat, and then I admit that I tend to burn through a few more in the early game, but even then it's nothing like thirty-to-one.

Yes, perhaps part of my problem is that I have been focusing on non-combat characters recently. My first really successful exploration of the game (posted earlier in the thread), I was really just trying to survive and try out as many different things as possible--and it shows in the character. I focused on raising skiils (for survival) and got a smattering of abilities that seemed like a good idea at the time, and things worked out alright.

But, I just like playing the non-combat characters. It's interesting, and intense, and tough. When they live, it's super fun. They just have a habit of getting spanked by crebain or wolves or umm. Just about anything. (ETA: Admittedly, it would be kind of nice to hit a crebain once in a while with 5 dex and no offensive penalties. As it stands, my characters usually just get pecked to death while they feebly attempt to land a shot in return.)

Unfortunately, I've even had a few that made it past some key thresholds, and have still bitten it for whatever reason (most recently it was stumbling into a spider's web followed by two failed Staff of Slumber uses--lousy luck followed by really lousy luck followed by downright awful luck).

I love the game, though. It's epic, I'm just leaving piles of (my own characters') corpses all over everywhere. What a mess.

[HallucinationMushroom]

So clearly what needs to happen is, every time someone wins, they get added as a new unique monster and the game is patched so their method of winning no longer works.

This is the coolest idea, ever.

[half]

(ETA: Admittedly, it would be kind of nice to hit a crebain once in a while with 5 dex and no offensive penalties. As it stands, my characters usually just get pecked to death while they feebly attempt to land a shot in return.)

Crebain have a defence of [+9] (with no protection at all) and 1d4 health, so any hit should kill them. You should definitely be able to hit them quite easily with a Dex 5 character. If you have Dex 5 and 4 points in melee, that would be (+9) to attack, so you should hit them almost 50% of the time (you need to beat their score).

If you have trouble hitting something, remember that the things that halve your evasion also halve the enemies' evasion. For example, archery halves enemy evasion, so can be useful for birds and dragonflies and things. I should note that the only monsters which need light in order to see you are @s and Gs (which carry their own light), but if you turn out your torch and shoot them from the darkness, you can halve their evasion twice.

[nppangband]

So clearly what needs to happen is, every time someone wins, they get added as a new unique monster and the game is patched so their method of winning no longer works.

That is what Robert Alan Keoneke did with the original Moria.

[Derakon]

That is what Robert Alan Keoneke did with the original Moria.

Thank you for remembering. I was hoping someone would.

[buzzkill]

So clearly what needs to happen is, every time someone wins, they get added as a new unique monster

Yeah, yeah, and put the that winning player on DL21 (substituting useful abilities and such for not-so-useful-as-an-NPC gear). Only he who reaches and beats this champion gets to reign on DL22. etc.

If it gets out of hand, which doesn't seem to be a problem at this point, re-balance and start again.

[HallucinationMushroom]

As soon as you hit Satyr's level you fall asleep, and then die. You'll need godly level earplugs to stand a chance!

[half]

Thank you for remembering. I was hoping someone would.

I think quite a few of us got it. As it happens, I've just offered Satyr a chance to create a new artefact or vault and hope he or she will accept.

I don't want Sil to be unwinnable, but I do want to follow the Moria approach on one thing: Morgoth should be (practically if not theoretically) unkillable in Sil. If someone should kill him, I will certainly make him harder to kill. Moreover, this has already happened several times in beta testing, so he is getting quite robust! I do think it is still possible (and have my suspicions as to how) but I'll let others have the pleasure of forcing me to make him stronger again.

[decoy]

If you have trouble hitting something, remember that the things that halve your evasion also halve the enemies' evasion. For example, archery halves enemy evasion, so can be useful for birds and dragonflies and things. I should note that the only monsters which need light in order to see you are @s and Gs (which carry their own light), but if you turn out your torch and shoot them from the darkness, you can halve their evasion twice.

Thanks for the tips, my non-combat characters might have a slightly higher chance of survival now :P

(Edited to add: ...Or not.)

[decoy]

From my experience I think there is a bit of truth in this, but it's not nearly so extreme as you suggest.

Update: Well, looking at my scoreboard, 30 is a nicely quantitative estimate. My v1.0 scoreboard had 52 corpses and 2 relatively successful characters (one combat, one noncombat), and my v1.0.1 scoreboard has exactly 30 right now (all noncombat) since I installed it.

(EDITED TO ADD: It's a great game, don't get me wrong. I'm happy that it's challenging and complex.)