Sil is too hard

[will_asher]

Am I missing something or am I just the only non-*banding expert who's posting Sil dumps? This game is too hard.
I run away down the stairs and suddenly yet another group of orcs appear on the stairs (shouldn't they come one at a time? That must be a wide staircase for them to all come down at once) including a unique. So I go down a hallway to get away from them because their group ai means they won't follow me. Then I decide to drink a few potions to see if any of them will give me any buffs to help me fight the orcs. First one I drink is a potion of slowing. seems like in two moves I was surrounded. What happened to their group ai?? I thought I was safe at the other end of the hallway. How'd they know I was slowed?
This variant should be called "There's no escape!"
I really don't like having a small limited number of turns to spend at each depth. I always feel rushed. If I run away down the stairs, it uses an extra 100 turns so I end up deeper faster when I was already at a depth I couldn't survive.
Maybe I should stick to DaJAngband.

PS: I have yet to see a single mode of magical ID in the game. Is there any? Or do we have to ID everything by use? In which case the first one of any good potion/scroll is wasted on being IDed. In a short game where magic items are so scarce, this is bad.

EDIT/PPS: In this game, I always feel like I need more tools to help me defend myself. I see monsters that will probably kill me, then start going the other direction and see more monsters. (hence NoescapeBand) So I look in my inventory for something that will help and all I have is a bunch of nonmagical weapons and armor and a potion of poison or slowing. Does ?phase door exist in this game? Even a wand of stinking cloud would really help sometimes.

[Estie]

My imression was that you are supposed to pick stealth and avoid everything.

[Storch]

My imression was that you are supposed to pick stealth and avoid everything.

I tried two different approaches. Stealthy character with perception and warrior type. Warrior type is imho easier.

Stealth in Sil is great, you can go unnoticed around group of orcs. But when one notices you, he shouts and than you can only run. If you are slower than the bad guys or they have ranged attack (easterling archers, urgh), you are dead.

I think that the game is probably not THAT difficult. It is different. Moreover, it has only 20 levels so every stairs down mean that you are diving pretty fast.

I remember that Angband seemed very difficult years ago to me.

On the other hand, I agree that it seems that AI cheats sometimes. Monsters sometimes seem to know things they should not know.

[PowerWyrm]

First one I drink is a potion of slowing. seems like in two moves I was surrounded. What happened to their group ai?? I thought I was safe at the other end of the hallway. How'd they know I was slowed?

Group AI only works when you're inside a corridor, not at intersections or bends.

[LostTemplar]

It seems, that more or less hack n slash character just go and kill all in his way, until he is surrounded and afraid, then he dies.

[half]

On the other hand, I agree that it seems that AI cheats sometimes. Monsters sometimes seem to know things they should not know.

I'd be interested to hear of specific examples of this, as I'm prepared to change things if it is widely perceived as unfair. Orcs do indeed modify their behaviour based on your health and your status conditions (e.g. fear, blindness, stunning, paralysis, slowness). This seems pretty fair to me though. You change your behaviour based on whether the monsters are afraid, stunned, slow etc.

[half]

Group AI only works when you're inside a corridor, not at intersections or bends.

Slightly more accurately, it is still working at those points, it is just that they charge in if they can get into a 2 vs 1 position, and they often can at an intersection or bend in the corridor.

[LostTemplar]

I just found another possible warriors death: disarming. Can be countered by extra weapons maybe.

[Scatha]

It seems, that more or less hack n slash character just go and kill all in his way, until he is surrounded and afraid, then he dies.

The trick with this kind of character is to try not to let yourself become surrounded. You often have some choice over where to fight your battles, and choosing somewhere with an escape route can help a lot. Of course you also need to be prepared to retreat at the right time -- because there are generally no instant escapes in Sil you may need to do this as soon as you can see a situation which looks like it might develop badly, rather than waiting until you're close to dead.

There are ways to deal with being surrounded, though (although it is bad news); herbs of rage can help you fight your way out, and a Staff of Majesty or the Song of Elbereth can make your opponents run away (but may not work instantly, particularly if you are wounded which tends to make them braver).

Am I missing something or am I just the only non-*banding expert who's posting Sil dumps? This game is too hard.

The game is meant to be hard, but not impossibly so. I think you are probably making some systematic tactical errors which are getting you into trouble (see also the first half of this post, my reply to LostTemplar). However I will note that three of the people who have posted to the ladder, including me, were beta-testers (and alpha-testers!) for the game, so have had a while longer to get used to the style of play it calls for.

PS: I have yet to see a single mode of magical ID in the game. Is there any? Or do we have to ID everything by use? In which case the first one of any good potion/scroll is wasted on being IDed. In a short game where magic items are so scarce, this is bad.

There are some staves which can identify items for you; there's also the Perception ability, Lore Master, which automatically identifies everything for you (as well as giving you full knowledge of monsters and artefacts). It's a bit too expensive to be sensible to grab right at the start, but it's not unreasonable to aim for if you don't like playing the identify-by-use game. And there are no scrolls in Sil!

I can maybe provide more specific tips if you could share, say, a screenshot and a character dump at a point where you think things might go badly (don't leave it until things have gone badly, as that can be too late). From your existing character dumps, I'd suggest that you might find the early game a little easier with slightly higher investment in melee and evasion (and/or Dexterity).

[half]

I just found another possible warriors death: disarming. Can be countered by extra weapons maybe.

I usually carry a spare weapon or too. Even if it were not for orc captains (and Balrogs...) you often have a few weapons good for different situations, such as weapons with different slays or a big weapon for things that are resistant to critical hits. Fights with creatures that disarm you can certainly be pretty tense, even with a spare weapon or two.

[half]

However I will note that three of the people who have posted to the ladder, including me, were beta-testers (and alpha-testers!) for the game, so have had a while longer to get used to the style of play it calls for.

That is true. It is also interesting that the beta-testers were often completely new to roguelikes and to my knowledge none had ever played a variant of Angband before. It *could* be that this helped them in some ways, as they hadn't grown used to having easy escapes. Will Asher is entirely right that a main aspect of Sil is the lack of easy escapes. This doesn't mean you can't escape though, just that you need to think carefully and often flee before the last minute, as well as investing in skills and abilities that help with avoiding the types of situations in which you die.

From your existing character dumps, I'd suggest that you might find the early game a little easier with slightly higher investment in melee and evasion (and/or Dexterity).

This is correct. I think that the easiest playstyle for the early to mid game in Sil is a high-melee, high-evasion Feanorian. To get high melee and evasion, investing in a lot of Dex is really useful. Dex is probably the most important stat in Sil (as opposed to Angband where it is Con). The particular archetype I'm thinking of will want to use light weapons (a longsword or short sword) to get good critical hits, and will want to avoid many items that give penalties to melee and evasion. Avoiding many of the less useful Abilities will also help save your experience for more melee and evasion. This can make you almost unhittable in melee (but beware of arrows and breath weapons!). It is far from the only strategy, but I think it is one of the easiest for new players.

[LostTemplar]

The trick with this kind of character is to try not to let yourself become surrounded.

It is fun to fight surrounded and kill them all. BTW fear still may be trouble, I miss heroism potions.

[Scatha]

Your Will helps you to resist fear-causing effects (among many other things). And eating a herb of rage or drinking a potion of orcish liquor will cure your fear (with the herb I think moreover you may resist or even be immune to fear while its effects last).

[bio_hazard]

It is definitely a difficult game (still haven't made it past 300'), although I'm still learning.

I think that it's pretty easy to have bad luck in this game (i.e. do the "right" thing and melee in a corridor, but then have new monsters come from the other side and trap you). Respawn is fast enough that you can't really count on any area as being safe, and true escapes (stairs) are where the new monsters come from! My last good run was ended on my first meeting with clear worms. I learned that you just need to leave the level when you first meet one of those.

That said, I'm certainly not ready to say it is "too hard". I'm having fun, and making slow progress getting farther into the dungeon. This variant feels so much more interactive than most.

One thing that would be helpful, and might be OK thematically IMHO, would be if herbs auto-ID'ed. Maybe even starting with a useful herb or two.

I usually find a bow and arrow by the time I need them. I don't usually find armor better than basic leather, and will usually make either the studded leather or mail in a forge if I can. Herbs are very hit-or-mis- there are games where I haven't found any.

edit- I'd be very interested to see a good player do a video play-through to see exactly how they start and build their char, as well as their fighting and retreat tactics.

[half]

It is fun to fight surrounded and kill them all. BTW fear still may be trouble, I miss heroism potions.

You do get massive penalties for this though. As well as having one attack to their many (8 if fully surrounded), you get a penalty to evasion. Your penalty against an attack is -1 for each other monster adjacent to you, or -2 if that monster is directly opposite the attacker, or in the two directions closest to directly opposite. So you get -10 to all evasion rolls if completely surrounded, as well as suffering 8 attacks for each one you perform.

I try to avoid it, though I do know players who get Whirlwind Attack and try to get surrounded...