I still think Warriors are the easiest class

**Pete Mack** · October 16, 2010, 21:20

I think characters with The One Ring and PDSM (Bladeturner, no less!)are the easiest class...

**Fendell Orcbane** · October 16, 2010, 21:29

Originally posted by Pete Mack

I think characters with The One Ring and PDSM (Bladeturner, no less!)are the easiest class...

Yeah I'd agree, except that I won long before I found those to artifacts. Hell even without any artifacts I was killing orcs while I was pretty low level. Warriors are just really good at hand to hand, plus they are strong so they can wield better weapons pretty quickly.

**Timo Pietilä** · October 16, 2010, 22:05

Originally posted by Fendell Orcbane

The main reason that I say warriors are easy is because they have sex on the first date: ) LOL. No, really I had a very low turn count compared to other characters that I have won with. Hell this character has a lot more exp. than most of my winners with less turns of playing. Also I have no fears with this character, demon pits? Bring them on. Hell bring on and Undead pit.

I'm having similar Priest right now. All immunities with two swaps, more consumables than I ever going to need, weapon is MoD of Fury +19 to_dam +2 blows.

My only problem is that I can't use Umbar and still have +20+ speed for final fight without using speed ring, which forces me to use lose Tulkas, which in turn forces me to use Crown of Might which causes me to lose rConf, which I get from Ingwe, but swapping that off causes me to lose Elessar. Swapping in Haradrim causes me to lose rSound. Crown of Gondor would be perfect for me.

I have two options in last fight: overkill or really overkill. When you start to ignore lesser balrogs and horned reapers are just annoyance you are pretty much ready. But this is still lacking something. I want it to be perfect so maybe I wait for that Crown of Gondor. Maybe not.

**Fendell Orcbane** · October 16, 2010, 22:24

Originally posted by Timo Pietilä

I'm having similar Priest right now. All immunities with two swaps, more consumables than I ever going to need, weapon is MoD of Fury +19 to_dam +2 blows.

My only problem is that I can't use Umbar and still have +20+ speed for final fight without using speed ring, which forces me to use lose Tulkas, which in turn forces me to use Crown of Might which causes me to lose rConf, which I get from Ingwe, but swapping that off causes me to lose Elessar. Swapping in Haradrim causes me to lose rSound. Crown of Gondor would be perfect for me.

I have two options in last fight: overkill or really overkill. When you start to ignore lesser balrogs and horned reapers are just annoyance you are pretty much ready. But this is still lacking something. I want it to be perfect so maybe I wait for that Crown of Gondor. Maybe not.

Well I've never played a priest so I don't know much about playing them, but I tend to err on the side of overkill. But I don't know if I wouold worry about using umbar...because I'm sure that your MoD can do much more damage. ANd even with my character I was using healing potions when tangling with Horned Reapers.

**Ycombinator** · October 16, 2010, 22:41

Originally posted by Fendell Orcbane

Also I have no fears with this character, demon pits? Bring them on. Hell bring on and Undead pit. But I couldn't do that with my winning mage or Ranger. With my warrior all I need to do is find a corner and not let anything get face to face and I'm good because demons can't summon out of their LOS.

Well, that depends more on the equipment and not the character class. Cleaning demon pits and graveyards is most probably not for mages (though crazy randarts kit may help), but every other class can handle it with comparable kit. Paladins, rogues and rangers have not much worse melee than warriors, and priests' unlimited healing makes up for their mediocre fighting skills.
But still, my two warrior winners were if not the easiest, but certainly easier than you'd expect from a non-spellcasting class.

**Fendell Orcbane** · October 16, 2010, 22:44

Originally posted by Ycombinator

Well, that depends more on the equipment and not the character class. Cleaning demon pits and graveyards is most probably not for mages (though crazy randarts kit may help), but every other class can handle it with comparable kit. Paladins, rogues and rangers have not much worse melee than warriors, and priests' unlimited healing makes up for their mediocre fighting skills.
But still, my two warrior winners were if not the easiest, but certainly easier than you'd expect from a non-spellcasting class.

I'm thjinking I should try to win with a priest next. I expect to die a few times though: (

**Timo Pietilä** · October 16, 2010, 23:01

Originally posted by Fendell Orcbane

Well I've never played a priest so I don't know much about playing them, but I tend to err on the side of overkill. But I don't know if I wouold worry about using umbar...because I'm sure that your MoD can do much more damage. ANd even with my character I was using healing potions when tangling with Horned Reapers.

Actually holy might bolts I had made over 800 points of damage / shot, while 7 blows with that MoD made less than 700 points of damage. So Umbar made over double-damage compared to MoD with Haradrim. Even with additive slays it would still had beaten MoD.

Without Haradrim I would have probably used Cubragol/Thorin/Elessar + biggest RoDam instead of Umbar/Thorin/Ingwe + RoS +11. That one extra blow+shot from it is really overkill.

Final fight was just as easy as I expected it to be. One *healing*, one healing, couple of cast healings, one restore mana. Didn't even need to get rid of summons. I had 10x consumables I needed. Kind of uneventful fight. Sauron practically died without fight. Grand Master Mystic would have been harder opponent. Sauron has too many harmless spells to be any real threat. It needs to be fixed.

Most difficult monsters are 1) Morgoth (but you prepare for that) 2) Tarrasque 3) Vecna 4) Huan......~15) Sauron ....

Time to upgrade to latest (looks like it has changed quite a bit looking at your chardump). I might try warrior too this time. Half-orc warrior maybe.

**Fendell Orcbane** · October 16, 2010, 23:06

I think the newer dumps are better because a) arrows and bolts don't do more damage than hand to hand weapons b) ego dragon scale armor. Finally its useful: ) c) it appears that hand to hand weapons do a bit more damage.

**Ycombinator** · October 16, 2010, 23:21

Priest getting 7 blows with MoD? How so?^W^W^.... Oh, never mind, forgot it's Fury.

I wonder how can you put Sauron on the 15th place and in the same time name Vecna the 3rd hardest monster in the game. They have comparable spellset and melee attacks, but Sauron has 75% more HP, 60% more AC and slightly deadlier mana storms.
IMO, Sauron seems to be easier because you make preparations before descending to dlvl 99, but the kit for the final fight is often sub-optimal for the usual wandering at dlvl 97, where you meet every other monster.

**Timo Pietilä** · October 17, 2010, 00:14

Originally posted by Ycombinator

Priest getting 7 blows with MoD? How so?^W^W^.... Oh, never mind, forgot it's Fury.

I wonder how can you put Sauron on the 15th place and in the same time name Vecna the 3rd hardest monster in the game. They have have comparable spellset and melee attacks, but Sauron has 75% more HP, 60% more AC and slightly deadlier mana storms.
IMO, Sauron seems to be easier because you make preparations before descending to dlvl 99, but the kit for the final fight is often sub-optimal for the usual wandering at dlvl 97, where you meet every other monster.

I actually didn't made any preparations against Sauron. I just killed him.

There is a few differences between Vecna and Sauron:

1) Vecna has S_KIN which in Vecnas case means Reapers
2) Sauron has S_WRAITH (wraiths are pretty harmless by the time you are fighting Sauron). If that were S_LICH I would be scared.
3) Sauron has BA_WATER, BO_ICEE, BO_PLAS that are pretty harmless with sound resist.
4) Sauron has TELE_LEVEL which does nothing with nexus resist or saving throw, and even if it does, it is only annoying, not deadly.
5) Sauron has BA_DARK which is actually dangerous
6) Sauron has S_HI_DRAGON and S_UNIQUE

That's 1 spell that does nothing, 3 spells that does not harm you much, 3 that might not do anything or harm very little (extra summons) and one that is dangerous especially without resist (but Arkenstone gives you it), and Vecna has one that is really dangerous that Sauron lacks.

Too many spells. Total 20. Morgoth has only 10. Vecna 13. Sauron uses too much time doing things that are basically harmless. What makes Tarrasque so dangerous? it has only four moves: attack, breathe cold, breathe fire and breathe disenchantment.

This would be completely different if there were a bit more AI behind monsters actions. Like not trying to cast summon when there is no space for summon to appear. Not trying spells that do not affect you more than once. That would make also Morgoth a lot scarier.

**will_asher** · October 17, 2010, 02:40

Originally posted by Timo Pietilä

Not trying spells that do not affect you more than once.

I thought monsters with the SMART flag already had this?
Now that I look at the code, I guess AI_LEARN has to be on. Seems to me SMART monsters should always do this.

<goes to make appropriate change in DJA>

Originally posted by Fendell Orcbane

demon pits? Bring them on. Hell bring on an Undead pit.

Hell brings on the demon pits. Hades brings on the undead pits.

**fizzix** · October 17, 2010, 03:07

Originally posted by Timo Pietilä

2) Sauron has S_WRAITH (wraiths are pretty harmless...

I'm pretty sure S_WRAITH summons ringwraiths. If you've killed all the ringwraiths, I think it summons high undead. Not entirely sure about that though, it may just summon W.

Originally posted by Timo Pietilä

Too many spells. Total 20. Morgoth has only 10. Vecna 13. Sauron uses too much time doing things that are basically harmless. What makes Tarrasque so dangerous? it has only four moves: attack, breathe cold, breathe fire and breathe disenchantment.

This is definitely true. Sauron needs beefing up. And the easiest way to do it is to remove some of his useless spells. Actually, I'd like Sauron to be able to teleport you away, instead of teleporting himself away.

**Timo Pietilä** · October 17, 2010, 08:26

Originally posted by fizzix

I'm pretty sure S_WRAITH summons ringwraiths. If you've killed all the ringwraiths, I think it summons high undead. Not entirely sure about that though, it may just summon W.

You are correct that it summons ringwraiths. I checked which monsters have that, and Tselakus which has more than once summoned ringwraiths has only S_WRAITH, no other special flag for it. At the time you meet Tselakus that is actually dangerous because there are several still alive.

However ringwraiths are quite weak opponents alone. Even Witch-King. By the time you are fighting Sauron most of them are dead.

I have several times thought about making ringwraiths a special case of summon that is tied to either Sauron or The One Ring. They are truly immortal until you either possess The One or have killed Sauron. All ringwraiths should be able to summon other ringwraiths and their level should be very close together. Ringwraiths acted as a team, very rarely alone.

There is a tiny problem with that: Eowyn was able to kill a ringwraith without The One destroyed and Sauron still alive. We could of course interpret that as it just lost its tangible form just like they lost them in crossing Bruinen. Didn't sound like that though in the books. Maybe you need a special type of weapon. Maybe even make then immune to weapons that don't have slay undead.

**shawnosullivan** · October 17, 2010, 18:09

the ringwraiths in TOME 2 had some of those qualities - they could only be permanently destroyed after you destroyed the ring, and they disenchanted almost any weapon you attacked them with (instantly shattering non-artifact, non-westernesse weapons). they also could inflict you with the black breath, which could be very nasty, and required athelas to heal. even when you were powerful enough to kill ringwraiths quite easily, they were still enemies you thought twice about fighting...

I still think Warriors are the easiest class

I still think Warriors are the easiest class

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