Playing with nerfed archery, missile rebalance

[fizzix]

I am still committed to trying to scale back archery beyond just additive multipliers; I think archery is over-powered even when using unbranded, non-slay ammo. But you all are right, that last patch was way too harsh.

My current plan is to try something like this:

DMG = (bow-dmg * bow-mult) + (ammo-dmg * ammo-mult) + (bow-mult * ammo-mult * ammo-dice)

I like this because it makes mithril and seeker arrows dramatically better than other kinds. It also does not modify the "default" case where a character uses normal ammo (no matter what kind of launcher is being used).

Anyway, I should have a patch for this up soon.

Archery is only unbalanced with unbranded missiles when you have extra shots. Otherwise, it's very good.

[d_m]

I am still committed to trying to scale back archery beyond just additive multipliers; I think archery is over-powered even when using unbranded, non-slay ammo. But you all are right, that last patch was way too harsh.

My current plan is to try something like this:

DMG = (bow-dmg * bow-mult) + (ammo-dmg * ammo-mult) + (bow-mult * ammo-mult * ammo-dice)

I like this because it makes mithril and seeker arrows dramatically better than other kinds. It also does not modify the "default" case where a character uses normal ammo (no matter what kind of launcher is being used).

Anyway, I should have a patch for this up soon.

[PowerDiver]

Well, it will definitely get tried out in NPP.

I was wondering whether you should define the crit number to be (hit roll)/(ac) as integer arithmetic. Then 1 is a normal hit, and higher numbers could be higher levels of criticals. ISTR I was not entirely happy with that idea, but I lost interest in worrying about it when the idea didn't get much support.

[nppangband]

I've been saying for years that criticals should depend on the to-hit roll. A crit should be about hitting the precise weak spot you are aiming for. Weight is already incorporated in the damage dice.

Yes. The more I think about it, the more I like it. I am considering it for weapons as well.

This idea received surprisingly [to me] little support in rgra.

Well, it will definitely get tried out in NPP.

[PowerDiver]

Another thing that has been ignored: critical hits....

I've been saying for years that criticals should depend on the to-hit roll. A crit should be about hitting the precise weak spot you are aiming for. Weight is already incorporated in the damage dice.

This idea received surprisingly [to me] little support in rgra.

[nppangband]

Another thing that has been ignored: critical hits.... Because the probability of critical hits are based on weapon weight, and I think it uses the weight of the arrows, so critical hits almost never happen. But they should for the characters who are skilled with bows.

We could eliminate the multipliers on the bows completely....and have the probability of a critical hit from archery based on player skill with archery and the weight of the bow instead. That way, the Rangers and warriors will still get big damage and the other classes won't.

I also think the multipliers for bows should increase the number of damage dice before the damage is calculated, rather than doing the multipliers after the damage is calculated. With ammunition being 1d4 or 1d5, under the current system 20-25% of the hits are for max damage. (Actually now that I think about it, melee hits should probably do the same.

[Pete Mack]

How about keeping multipliers multipliers, but instead of multiplying multipliers add them together. x3 bow with x3 slay ammo would be x6 instead of x9. I think that is what "additive multipliers" were meant to be:

Acid bolts with +10 to-dam with Umbar (x7) (+18, +18) that would be:
(3 + 7) * (18 + 10 + 1d4) ~= 305, when it is currently 3 * 7 * (18 + 10 + 1d4) ~= 640.5 Without ammo bonus it would be (3 + 7) * (18 + 1d4) ~= 205.

Very useful, but not overpowered so.

This was why I proposed it. The big reason that archery is a problem is that cumulative multiplication is guaranteed to be unbalanced.

Bard with Acid brand arrows (or just ordinary arrows vs Dragons) in the hands of a cl 40 ranger currently does

3*5*3 = 45 * base arrow damage / turn. There's no possible way to balance it.

(3+5)*2 = 16 base damage/turn seems in the realm of reasonable, assuming additive multipliers and one extra shot.


For unlucky souls with an ordinary longbow, branded ammo still does 6x base damage (rather than 9x base damage), so it still is very valuable in the early game--strong enough for a Ranger with 2 shots to take down Smaug with an ordinary bow.

Those were the two criteria I wanted to enforce:
* Aggressively diving Rangers can kill Smaug
* Crazy multipliers in the end game can't unbalance play completely.

[fizzix]

How about keeping multipliers multipliers, but instead of multiplying multipliers add them together. x3 bow with x3 slay ammo would be x6 instead of x9. I think that is what "additive multipliers" were meant to be:

Acid bolts with +10 to-dam with Umbar (x7) (+18, +18) that would be:
(3 + 7) * (18 + 10 + 1d4) ~= 305, when it is currently 3 * 7 * (18 + 10 + 1d4) ~= 640.5 Without ammo bonus it would be (3 + 7) * (18 + 1d4) ~= 205.

Very useful, but not overpowered so.

I don't think we should use Umbar as a base for endgame power. It's overpowered and should probably be rarer than it currently is. Instead use x5 launcher with branded mithril or seeker bolts.

assume x5 launcher, +20 to dam and +15 branded mithril bolts giving:

current:
(20+15+8)*5*3 = 645 (high)
additive:
(20+15+8)*(5+3) = 344 (good)
no brand:
(20+15+8)*5 = 215 (good)

So this seems to work. A x4 launcher with extra shots is still a bit of a problem:
(20+15+8)*(4+3)*2 = 602 (high)
If we are able to drop extra shots to 1.5 instead of 2 we get:
(20+15+8)*(4+3)*1.5 = 451 (good)

This looks perfectly serviceable for the endgame. Archery is still overpowered in the early game, but that's more because few monsters have ranged attacks. I think the best way to affect that is with ammo and enchanting availability. But one problem at a time. Let's change multipliers to additive, it seems to already be possible and then look at reducing extra shots.

[Timo Pietilä]

Why, that's exactly what you can expect with additive modifiers applied only to base dice.

How about keeping multipliers multipliers, but instead of multiplying multipliers add them together. x3 bow with x3 slay ammo would be x6 instead of x9. I think that is what "additive multipliers" were meant to be:

Acid bolts with +10 to-dam with Umbar (x7) (+18, +18) that would be:
(3 + 7) * (18 + 10 + 1d4) ~= 305, when it is currently 3 * 7 * (18 + 10 + 1d4) ~= 640.5 Without ammo bonus it would be (3 + 7) * (18 + 1d4) ~= 205.

Very useful, but not overpowered so.

[fizzix]

Ah, I missed the second part about adding multipliers only to damage rolls.

Yes, that's too much of a change. Really, changing the slay multiplier to additive and making extra shots = 1.5 shots instead of 2 shots is probably enough for a first go.

[Ycombinator]

That looks to me like the patch isn't working properly...

Why, that's exactly what you can expect with additive modifiers applied only to base dice.
avg(1d5) = 3
3 * 5 + 25 = 40 — for average bolts
3 * (5+3) + 25 + 10 = 59 — for acid bolts with +10 to-dam.

With Umbar (x7) (+18, +18) this would be:
3 * 7+18 = 39
3 * (7+3) + 18 + 10 = 58

With Bard (x5) (+17, +19):
avg(1d4) = 2.5
2.5 * 5 + 19 = 31.5
2.5 * (5 + 3) + 19 + 10 = 49

All equally useless.

[fizzix]

It can be brutal for starters, but it makes mid- and end-game archery altogether obsolete. I tried d_m's patch in my current game. Let me show some numbers:

  Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x5) (+15,+25) (+1)

                            current V       with patch                        

1d5 (+0, +0)                141.4           40.1
1d5 (+5, +5)                168.3           45.3
1d5 of acid (+3, +10)       581.4/193.8     59.4/50.3
1d5 of slay evil (+8, +12)  408/204         58.4/52.3

Brands and slays become useless, difference between launchers almost nonexistent. Whether it's Bard, or Umbar, or high-end ego launcher, they're as useful against end-game enemies as flasks of oil. Archery should be nerfed, but not by an order of magnitude!
One thing I agree with is that high dice ammo (mithril and seeker) should contribute more to the total damage. Currently there is not much difference between them given sufficiently high to-dam bonus.

That looks to me like the patch isn't working properly...

[Ycombinator]

Applying the multiplier to the damage is realy brutal for starting players, since arrows are only 1d4. Really, really brutal.

It can be brutal for starters, but it makes mid- and end-game archery altogether obsolete. I tried d_m's patch in my current game. Let me show some numbers:

  Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x5) (+15,+25) (+1)

                            current V       with patch                        

1d5 (+0, +0)                141.4           40.1
1d5 (+5, +5)                168.3           45.3
1d5 of acid (+3, +10)       581.4/193.8     59.4/50.3
1d5 of slay evil (+8, +12)  408/204         58.4/52.3

Brands and slays become useless, difference between launchers almost nonexistent. Whether it's Bard, or Umbar, or high-end ego launcher, they're as useful against end-game enemies as flasks of oil. Archery should be nerfed, but not by an order of magnitude!
One thing I agree with is that high dice ammo (mithril and seeker) should contribute more to the total damage. Currently there is not much difference between them given sufficiently high to-dam bonus.

[Pete Mack]

@Timo--
FAAnangband works that way, more or less. You might want to give it a try for playtesting.

[Timo Pietilä]

Oops! I retract. Unless curses are reworked. Or remove curse applies to heavy curses. Or something

I think the whole "sticky curse" is being reworked. Much better "curse" would be item with a drawback or drawbacks that can be removed by remove curse. Excellent melee-weapon that activates randomly to cause terror, for example. Helmet with ESP that randomly causes blindness (make that a visor that drops in front of your eyes .

Waiting for that I think "remove curse" could have same chance to break heavy curse as enchant scrolls have. Read enough of those and heavy curse breaks. That allows removing enchant scrolls from shops. Priests would obviously benefit more from that than any other class, but OTOH I don't see anything wrong with that. In old days priests were capable of recognizing curses (heavy and normal) without even needing to pick things up (by casting OoD to items), and I don't think anybody was against that.