Reading Silmarillion

[Bowman]

I think Jordan lost himself in his own world, constantly adding more and more story arcs and personnel and he probably didn't know anymore how to bring all that to an end. Maybe it was due to the tremendous success of the series that he had to deliver more novels or whatever.

I never checked into it for myself so I can't say anything definitive, but I've heard that it was around the time of writing "The Shadow Rising" that Jordan started having the martial problems that eventually led to either a divorce or at least some estrangement from his wife (which lasted until he was diagnosed with his terminal illness) and that the books from then until "Winter's Heart" had a lot of him forcing himself to write because he didn't want to stall the series for his personal issues. Not to say that that excuses the change in the series, but that's the explanation that I've heard.

It really comes to a point where it is sometimes unbearable. There are chapters where nothing happens, except Egwene taking a bath or some such. And Jordan fills page after page with descriptions of absolutely irrelevant things. The reader struggles through heaps of Aes Sedai, all introduced with names and origins and depictions of their garments down to the tiniest embroidery.

I won't argue that Egwene and Perrin do a whole lot of nothing for the middle third of the series. They get some redemption with their parts in "A Memory of Light" (particularly Perrin), but I did rather hate most of their parts for a long time. At least Rand had his satisfying character development going on, Elyane and Nynaeve were doing some things, and Mat was always great post-tainting.

Also, I found the copious descriptions of the One Ring in LotR to be far more detrimental to the flow of things that the clothing descriptions in Wheel of Time, but that's going to a subjective thing either way. Not saying that they were enjoyable, but they didn't stick out like a Tom Bombadil cameo.

Heh. I think these days, F&S are a hell of a lot more ambiguous in a lot of ways than Tolkien intended. But such is storytelling- the same stories mean different things, generations later.

Awkward word choice on my part . I'd meant that their individual endings were ambiguous in terms of how good/bad they were, not anything to do with their relationship. I try to avoid reading too much into subtext because it's almost impossible to tell what, if anything, the author was trying to imply (like in my 10th or 11th grade English class, my teacher had disagreed with my interpretation of LotR having a theme of seemingly insignificant characters [from the point of view of a person in that world] being the driving force behind most of the major events, but the letter from Tolkien in the forward of my copy of Silmarillion says that that was exactly what he was trying to do).

Yeah... without opening an enormous can of worms (and I really hope this doesn't), a lot of 1980s-and-earlier fantasy seems to rely on very strict separation/misunderstanding between the genders (Dune also comes to mind). Especially Wheel of Time though. With the unassailable division between male/female sides of magic, a gay or especially a trans character would kind of break the whole system. Just a comment! Again, seen from outside the times in which it was written.

I understand what you mean. I enjoyed the Dune books, too, but I felt like the later ones (starting with "God Emperor of Dune") went way off the deep end with the sexual issues, and the series would've done well to just end after "Children of Dune".

The male/female split of magic does become more meaningful later on (around "Winter's Heart", if I'm not mistaken), although it never really stops feeling like it could've been substituted by just saying that different channelers have different talents. Incidentally, there is at least one canonically homosexual character in Wheel of Time, and from what I recall, it was handled gracefully (just kind of an "Oh, really? Okay." moment). There is also at least one trans channeler, but I'd rather not say more about that for spoiler reasons.

[Rowan]

...clothing descriptions in Wheel of Time, but that's going to a subjective thing either way. Not saying that they were enjoyable, but they didn't stick out like a Tom Bombadil cameo.

Hahaha! For me, given what Tom is or could be, he at least behaves in a way that's believable. My problem with Wheel of Time (3 books in) is that the characters themselves might be believable, but their stupid decisions come across as dumb-just-to-keep-the-plot-going type of things.

It might not change your mind one bit, but if it has been 20 years, it might be worth re-reading LotR. A lot of what you say is true, but some might be a little different than you remember. Again- not saying anything's gonna change, but it might.

...ambiguous in terms of how good/bad they were, not anything to do with their relationship. I try to avoid reading too much into subtext because it's almost impossible to tell what, if anything, the author was trying to imply

Heheh. I think Tolkien was pretty clearly not trying to say F&S were in a romantic relationship, but I don't see harm in people reading it that way nowadays. Doesn't really change the story other than to make the ending much sadder.

I understand what you mean. I enjoyed the Dune books, too, but I felt like the later ones (starting with "God Emperor of Dune") went way off the deep end with the sexual issues, and the series would've done well to just end after "Children of Dune".

"God Emperor" was truly painful. "Children" would have been a great ending, though I enjoyed aspects of book 5 and 6 very much indeed. His son created a huge, self-aggrandizing disaster of an ending, though, the way he deus-ex-machina'ed his own character to be the savior of the universe. Pretty sure his father had a different ending in mind.

(back to Wheel of Time) ...but I'd rather not say more about that for spoiler reasons.

Thank you! I've heard bits and pieces in my own research that I wished I hadn't. We'll see how it reads

[Avenger]

Dagon Bytes has a collection of Lovecraft's work. My personal favorites, in no particular order, are The Rats in the Walls, The Color Out of Space, The Shadow Out of Time, The Shadow Over Innsmouth, The Call of Cthulu, The Dunwich Horror, The Whisperer in Darkness, At the Mountains of Madness, and The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath.

I'd like to second this entire list of titles, though I'd include The Case of Charles Dexter Ward. I also did almost all of my Lovecraft reading over at dagonbytes.

[Bowman]

Hahaha! For me, given what Tom is or could be, he at least behaves in a way that's believable. My problem with Wheel of Time (3 books in) is that the characters themselves might be believable, but their stupid decisions come across as dumb-just-to-keep-the-plot-going type of things.

Fair point. Wheel of Time does admittedly have a lot of people with poor decision-making skills. That's one of the things that colors my love for Mat: he's a loser at first, but from the end of book 4 on, he's pretty much far and away the wisest character (probably helps that "The Shadow Rising" was the first book of the series that I actually read, so my first exposure to Mat was when he was turning into a cool character).

It might not change your mind one bit, but if it has been 20 years, it might be worth re-reading LotR. A lot of what you say is true, but some might be a little different than you remember. Again- not saying anything's gonna change, but it might.

If I can find them bundled for a decent price, I wouldn't be opposed to it. If nothing else, it would at least fit in my classic books collection next to things like Beowulf.

"God Emperor" was truly painful. "Children" would have been a great ending, though I enjoyed aspects of book 5 and 6 very much indeed. His son created a huge, self-aggrandizing disaster of an ending, though, the way he deus-ex-machina'ed his own character to be the savior of the universe. Pretty sure his father had a different ending in mind.

Leto really did ruin things.

I'd like to second this entire list of titles, though I'd include The Case of Charles Dexter Ward. I also did almost all of my Lovecraft reading over at dagonbytes.

I like hard copies, so it's annoying that there isn't a complete book of Lovecraft (as far as I know) like there is the complete book of Poe. I have 3 or 4 compilations of Lovecraft stories and yet still don't have everything that's on dagonbytes.

Oh, also, Pickman's Model is another nice one, with the added bonus that it ties into Dream Quest.

[Rowan]

...Wheel of Time... Mat: he's a loser at first, but from the end of book 4 on, he's pretty much far and away the wisest character

He did spend a good amount of time sick with that dagger, then playing catch-up. He's definitely coming into his own, though my interest in Perrin is rapidly waning to balance it out, ha.

Leto really did ruin things.

I actually meant Brian Herbert! But come to think of it, the fictional son was also pretty much a disaster.

[Mondkalb]

I like hard copies, so it's annoying that there isn't a complete book of Lovecraft (as far as I know) like there is the complete book of Poe. I have 3 or 4 compilations of Lovecraft stories and yet still don't have everything that's on dagonbytes.

Oh, also, Pickman's Model is another nice one, with the added bonus that it ties into Dream Quest.

Well, there is the annotated complete works:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Annotated-H-Lovecraft-Books/dp/0871404532/

and the complete fiction:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Fiction-Lovecraft-Knickerbocker-Classics/dp/1631060015

[Bowman]

He did spend a good amount of time sick with that dagger, then playing catch-up. He's definitely coming into his own, though my interest in Perrin is rapidly waning to balance it out, ha.

Perrin...yeah, he goes through a long stretch of alternating between his "axe vs. hammer" monologues and trying to figure out how relationships with females work. For me, his part in "A Memory of Light" was good enough to (mostly) make up for it, but Perrin is definitely the worst of the three boys.

I actually meant Brian Herbert! But come to think of it, the fictional son was also pretty much a disaster.

Oh, did Brian Herbert continue the series after "Chapterhouse: Dune"? I always saw that one listed as the end of the official series, so I never looked into whatever Brian Herbert did.

Well, there is the annotated complete works:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Annotated-H-Lovecraft-Books/dp/0871404532/

and the complete fiction:
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Ficti.../dp/1631060015

Ah, that's EXACTLY the sort of thing I wanted! Thanks!

This is what happens when you rely on dropping by book stores instead of taking advantage of technology

[wobbly]

"God Emperor" was truly painful.

Interesting that everyone seems to hate God Emperor. I found it the 2nd best in the series (1st is the 1st book), though it reads more like philosophy then a story. It also explains a lot of things from the 1st 3 that don't really make sense without it. 5 & 6 make little sense whatsoever & I suspect the 7th that he never finished was meant to clarify a few things, the way the 4th clarifies things from the 1st 3.

It does give it a sense of being part of a bigger world, though I personally prefer the way that Lovecraft does that. I'm probably too harsh on Tolkien's works in general, but I just always found LotR to feel really hollow and formulaic, even before falling in love with the works of Lovecraft and Poe (both of whom also more or less started their own genres, so I'm not going to cut Tolkien any slack on that behalf). The Silmarillion has been worthy of the high praise that it gets, though.

This I also find interesting because your criticism of Tolkien (formulaic) would be mine of Lovecraft. For all that I love his imagination & creative, it feels to me that once you've read a few lovecraft stories you've read them all. The story details might change a little, but the literary devices are often exactly the same. For me it's like he wrote 1 good story a thousand times. With a couple of notable exceptions (from the 1's I've read): "The music of Eric Zann" & "The Dream-Quest of Unkown Kadath". I think "the music of Eric Zann" for me is an all time favourite.

[Therem Harth]

So, just IMO, it's worth mentioning that the later Dune novels have the highest conceptual squick factor of anything I have ever read or heard of in SF. And I have read an awful lot of bad and/or disturbing SF.

[wobbly]

So, just IMO, it's worth mentioning that the later Dune novels have the highest conceptual squick factor of anything I have ever read or heard of in SF. And I have read an awful lot of bad and/or disturbing SF.

Had to look up "squick" so not entirely sure what you mean here by "conceptual squick" as I'm not used to the term.

[Therem Harth]

@wobbly

In this case, "conceptual" as in "I don't care if it happens off-screen, just the concept is enough to make me feel like barfing."

[Bowman]

Interesting that everyone seems to hate God Emperor. I found it the 2nd best in the series (1st is the 1st book), though it reads more like philosophy then a story. It also explains a lot of things from the 1st 3 that don't really make sense without it. 5 & 6 make little sense whatsoever & I suspect the 7th that he never finished was meant to clarify a few things, the way the 4th clarifies things from the 1st 3.

As I see it, "God Emperor" had two big things going against it:

1. Replacing Paul as the central figure of the plot with Leto. Paul was a much easier character to bond with, because he was still essentially human (in terms of his characteristics, motivations, value system, etc.). Leto just about always ran on a whole different moral/ethical system, and then he went completely off the rails by bonding with a sandworm and twisting the Golden Path to his own ends and getting obsessed with cloning Idaho.

2. As you mentioned, "God Emperor" has a completely different narrative style. I actually didn't mind this, but it's not surprising that a lot of people would get turned off by it. It was kind of like how "Battlefield Earth" turns into a completely different book halfway through, only it came after readers had had about three times as long to get used to what "Dune" is.

I would say that "God Emperor" was still at least a decent book, but I still feel like it (and the books that came after) would've worked better if there was some kind of a formal divide between them and the earlier ones.

This I also find interesting because your criticism of Tolkien (formulaic) would be mine of Lovecraft. For all that I love his imagination & creative, it feels to me that once you've read a few lovecraft stories you've read them all. The story details might change a little, but the literary devices are often exactly the same.

Pedantic side note: My criticism of being formulaic was specifically for LotR, not for Tolkien's works as a whole.

I would agree that a good number of Lovecraft's stories tended to hit the same 3-5 broad strokes points, and I can't fully explain why it didn't bother me as much with his work as the "I can see what's coming in the next 50 pages" feeling with LotR did. Maybe it's that the really different Lovecraft stories (The Haunter in the Dark, The Music of Erich Zann, The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, Dreams in the Witch House, Pickman's Model, to name a few) were different enough to break up the feeling of being repetitive. Maybe it was that the cosmic horror genre just resonates well with me, so I was enjoying them enough to not mind it. Ultimately, I'd just chalk it up to being one of those subjective elements of taste.

[Rowan]

Oh, did Brian Herbert continue the series after "Chapterhouse: Dune"? I always saw that one listed as the end of the official series, so I never looked into whatever Brian Herbert did.

Well... he did. He wrote "Hunters of Dune" and "Sandworms of Dune," which supposedly complete his father's original intent for the story. However, that's very suspicious- because as soon as Brian took over, the story took off in a different direction, all the characters' personalities changed and intelligence dropped through the basement. Then I already mentioned he makes a character from his own prequels into the savior of the universe. Somehow I don't think it was in Frank's notes that the original ending of the story would glorify characters that his son would write 15 years after Frank's death.

I generally tell people to just stop after "Chapterhouse" and pretend the others never existed.

"I don't care if it happens off-screen, just the concept is enough to make me feel like barfing."

Hahaha, I'm trying to remember what you might be talking about.

Pedantic side note: My criticism of being formulaic was specifically for LotR, not for Tolkien's works as a whole.

How so formulaic?

[Nick]

How so formulaic?

It's just like a lot of the fantasy that succeeded it

[Bowman]

Hahaha, I'm trying to remember what you might be talking about.

I'd guess that it at least involves the axlotl tanks and Bene Gesserit muscle control.

How so formulaic?

From what I can recall, it just felt like the plot went along exactly as you would expect, and with the exception of the Shrine's state upon their return, what few things there were that could've been surprising were foreshadowed too heavily (although I might be keying in too much on Gandalf's attitude towards Gollum in the early parts and Wormtongue being Obviously Evil from the moment he's introduced as some ruler's adviser or whatever).

Honestly, it's not something that I'd normally consider to be a major flaw (the formula works for a reason, after all), but combined with not finding any of the characters compelling and getting bored with Sauron's apparent lack of actually doing anything, it's just one more thing that I disliked about LotR. I could just as easily say that most of the parts of The Silmarillion are formulaic, too, but they've got enough other things going for them that I can forgive that.

It's just like a lot of the fantasy that succeeded it

For sure, the wide spread influence that LotR had on fictional media as a whole and the medieval high fantasy genre in particular has lead to a bit of a Seinfeld Is Unfunny situation. I don't know that that's the whole of it, though, because LotR was one of the earliest works in that genre that I'd read (mostly read a lot of Fred Saberhagen's non-Berserker books and some R.A. Salvatore before it).