problem with partial ID and sales price

[saarn]

If I've worn a ring of the mouse long enough to know its bonuses to dex and stealth, but not long enough to know the negatives to prowess, the shop uses the good bits that are partially ID'd in their valuation, so they offer over 2K instead of the normal ~80. I'm guessing this is a more general problem with valuation, probably tied to the logic that would handle things like rings of strength that could potentially have negative bonuses. In this case though, it is wide open to abuse since rings of the mouse will (almost?) always have a big negative.

One possible fix might be for the shopkeep to model the expected value of the item based on "generating" a few items of the same type with any known brands/egos filled in and then discounting the value.

[Derakon]

Perhaps the simplest solution is for shopkeepers to automatically know the full qualities of any equipment (i.e. non-drinkable/aimable/zapable/etc.) and base their price on that. I suspect the resulting knowledge leak is negligible.

[Magnate]

Perhaps the simplest solution is for shopkeepers to automatically know the full qualities of any equipment (i.e. non-drinkable/aimable/zapable/etc.) and base their price on that. I suspect the resulting knowledge leak is negligible.

That was the original behaviour, and was changed because of the knowledge leaked. But now we no longer have cursed rings and so on, it could be worth reverting. Especially since no_selling will soon be the default *mwah ha ha*.

[Estie]

Awww...cheating those greedy shopkeepers of a couple Zorkmids is fun.

[bron]

Perhaps the simplest solution is for shopkeepers to automatically know the full qualities of any equipment [...] and base their price on that.

I almost agree: shopkeepers should offer a *lower* price based on their knowledge, but not a higher one. i.e. calculate a price based on what *you* know, and also based on what *they* know, and offer the lower of the two.

[ekolis]

I almost agree: shopkeepers should offer a *lower* price based on their knowledge, but not a higher one. i.e. calculate a price based on what *you* know, and also based on what *they* know, and offer the lower of the two.

That would be perfect for those greedy bastard shopkeepers!

[Derakon]

I almost agree: shopkeepers should offer a *lower* price based on their knowledge, but not a higher one. i.e. calculate a price based on what *you* know, and also based on what *they* know, and offer the lower of the two.

I like it.

[Zyphyr]

I almost agree: shopkeepers should offer a *lower* price based on their knowledge, but not a higher one. i.e. calculate a price based on what *you* know, and also based on what *they* know, and offer the lower of the two.

Seems like the perfect solution to me.

[saarn]

you've still got the knowledge leak problem-- assuming that there's something like a ring of strength that sometimes has negative bonus and sometimes has positive, you could get a pretty strong hint about the value of the item.

What about having anything that is only partially ID'd sell at the lesser of price based on known properties and price if it were not at all ID'd? This assumes base prices are reasonable. . .

[Derakon]

The price of un-ID'd items is pretty universally terrible, so that wouldn't change much. There's very few items that are still worth more than 0 gold but less than the price of an un-ID'd item.

I'm not too worried about knowledge leak simply because the ID game is getting less and less complicated, by design. And even without that, abusing shopkeepers to get knowledge of your items is something of a time-honored tradition in roguelikes. Hell, price-ID is a major way to figure out what your jewelry does in NetHack...

[bron]

you've still got the knowledge leak problem [...] What about having anything that is only partially ID'd sell at the lesser of price based on known properties and price if it were not at all ID'd?

I wasn't too concerned about the knowledge leakage in that direction since so few things are cursed any more. But I like this suggestion even more: a "partially" ID'd item counts the same as an un-ID'd one. The shopkeeper could even give a snide comment along with the low price to help the newbie understand why they're being offered so little.