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You read the scroll labeled NOBIMUS UPSCOTI...
You are surrounded by a stasis field!
The tengu tries to teleport, but fails!Comment
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www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.Comment
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so when are finesse weapons good?
I read this thread before I picked up v4. Cool, I thought, finally heavy weapons are going to make sense to use, and there will be different fighting styles. It'd been a few years since I'd really played Angband and I figured I'd try out a finesse character to see what that would be like.
My first character was a hobbit thief, I reduced his strength a bit and boosted dexterity so his starting finesse was pretty darn good. Around Clvl 10 I found some decent rapiers and stuff, and then I found a flail which was way better (got me to something like 15 damage per round whereas I was looking at maybe 10 with a short sword), then I got one of slay evil, and then I managed to finally buy a vanilla katana in the store which got me to 30 damage per round. In no case was a pure finesse weapon that I ran into ever appealing. Especially since the base damage per blow is so low that even if I had 20 blows per round, they all would be absorbed by half the monsters in the dungeon.
Similarly, I just ran a hobbit ranger (really annoying death) to Clvl 20 / Dlvl 33. I died wielding a hunter's broadsword, but could have equally gone for a battle axe.
Overall impressions: melee attacks seem to bounce off monsters. magic missile for my ranger was way better than either my melee or my longbow. Game seems mostly easier than I remember, but monsters are much harder to squash. I think it's easier because there aren't curses on equipment, there's less really bad equipment, less bad potions (I only hit one potion of saltwater), and generally the game seems less vindictive for making careless mistakes. I wish v4 were nastier (isn't getting screwed for being careless what this game is all about?).
Weapons with brands and such don't seem a whole lot better than regular weapons, and oddly free action seemed more common than see invisible (I found two sets of footwear with FA, but nothing of see invis).
Things I really liked:
first time running into a baby chaos drake and hallucinating wildly at Dlvl 17 or so. It was punishing, but it wore off in a few rounds so wasn't totally evil. Also gave me an early taste of what the deeper bits of the dungeon might be like.
Creeping xxx coins aren't obviously monsters until you get near them and they start hitting you. Nearly got my ass kicked by a creeping gold coins around Dlvl 7. Fun.
Things I wish for: ability to intentionally trigger traps (e.g. for teleport or trap doors if the latter still exist).
Code:[Angband-v4 v4-830-g188e03d-dirty Character Dump] Name Gopal Self RB CB EB Best Sex Male Age 28 STR: 17 -2 +0 +0 15 Race Hobbit Height 37 INT: 14 +2 +2 +0 18 Class Ranger Weight 60 WIS: 10 +1 -2 +0 9 Title Courser Social Liked DEX: 16 +3 +1 +0 18/20 HP -9/119 Maximize Y CON: 12 +2 -1 +0 13 SP 16/21 CHR: 10 +1 +1 +0 12 Level 20 Armor [22,+10] Saving Throw 67% Cur Exp 6588 Fight (+196,+102) Stealth Excellent Max Exp 6588 Melee (+216,+158) Finesse 126 Adv Exp 7560 Shoot (+209,+10) Prowess 60 MaxDepth 1650' (L33) Blows 1.8/turn Shooting Heroic Game Turns 248436 Blow power 2.0x Disarming 63% Standard Turns 23837 Shots 2/turn Magic Device 73 Resting Turns 10379 Infra 40 ft Search Radius 4 Gold 1451 Speed -1 Searching 46 Burden 102.8 lbs You are one of several children of a Hobbit Miller. You are a well liked child. You have dark brown eyes, straight blond hair, and an average complexion. rAcid:........+.... Nexus:............. rElec:....+........ Nethr:............. rFire:............. Chaos:............. rCold:............. Disen:............. rPois:............. Feath:............. rLite:............. pFear:............. rDark:............. pBlnd:............. Sound:............. pConf:............. Shard:............. pStun:............. Light:.....+....... Tunn.:............. Regen:............. Speed:............. ESP:............. Blows:............. Invis:............. Shots:............. FrAct:...........+. Might:............. HLife:............+ S.Dig:............. Stea.:............. ImpHP:............. Sear.:............. Fear:............. Infra:............+ Aggrv:............. [Last Messages] > Nár, the Dwarf hits you. > Nár, the Dwarf misses you. > Nár, the Dwarf hits you. > You fail to harm Nár, the Dwarf. > Nár, the Dwarf sets off a blinding flash. > You are blind. > You hit it. > You miss it. > it hits you. > You hit it. > You miss it. > it hits you. > You miss it. > it hits you. > You die. Killed by Nár, the Dwarf. [Character Equipment] a) a Journeyman's Broad Sword of Slay Troll (2d5) (+20,+56) <+85> Dropped by a Quasit at 850 feet (level 17). Slays trolls (x1.85). Can be destroyed by acid. Combat info: Receives 40% of your finesse score, 65% of your prowess score. 1.8 blows/round. 2.0x damage multiplier. Average damage/round: 22.5 vs. normal creatures, 31.9 vs. trolls. b) a Long Bow of Slaying (x3) (+13,+10) Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by acid, fire. c) a Ring of Protection [+10] Found lying on the floor at 700 feet (level 14). Can be destroyed by electricity. d) a Ring of Reckless Attacks (+35,+27) [-12] Found lying on the floor at 750 feet (level 15). Can be destroyed by electricity. e) an Amulet of Resist Lightning Found lying on the floor at 850 feet (level 17). Provides resistance to lightning. Cannot be harmed by electricity. f) a Lantern (11782 turns) <+2> Found lying on the floor at 850 feet (level 17). +2 light radius. Cannot be harmed by fire. g) a Jerkin [8,-1] Found lying on the floor at 500 feet (level 10). Can be destroyed by acid, fire. h) a Tough Cloak [1,+5] Dropped by a Snaga at 850 feet (level 17). Can be destroyed by acid, fire. i) a Large Shield of Resist Acid [5,+0] Bought from a store. Provides resistance to acid. Cannot be harmed by acid. j) a Soft Cap [2,+0] Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by acid. k) a Tough Set of Gauntlets [3,+2] Dropped by an unknown monster at 850 feet (level 17). Can be destroyed by acid, fire. l) a Tough Pair of Soft Boots of Free Action [3,+4] Dropped by Lagduf, the Snaga at 850 feet (level 17). Can be destroyed by acid, fire. Prevents paralysis. [Character Quiver] n) 21 Arrows (1d7) (+0,+0) Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by acid, fire. Combat info: Hits targets up to 120 feet away. Average damage/round: 23 vs. normal creatures, 0 vs. creatures made of stone, 0 vs. creatures made of stone, 25.2 vs. creatures hurt by light, 29 vs. evil creatures, 271.4 vs. demons, 23.8 vs. orcs, 1822.6 vs. trolls, 26.4 vs. giants, 1822.6 vs. dragons, 67.4 vs. creatures not resistant to acid, 0 vs. creatures not resistant to electricity, 47 vs. creatures not resistant to fire, 0 vs. creatures not resistant to cold, 2499.8 vs. creatures not resistant to poison. 35% chance of breaking upon contact. o) 40 Arrows (1d7) (+0,+0) Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by acid, fire. Combat info: Hits targets up to 120 feet away. Average damage/round: 23 vs. normal creatures, 0 vs. creatures made of stone, 0 vs. creatures made of stone, 25.2 vs. creatures hurt by light, 29 vs. evil creatures, 271.4 vs. demons, 23.8 vs. orcs, 1822.6 vs. trolls, 26.4 vs. giants, 1822.6 vs. dragons, 67.4 vs. creatures not resistant to acid, 0 vs. creatures not resistant to electricity, 47 vs. creatures not resistant to fire, 0 vs. creatures not resistant to cold, 2499.8 vs. creatures not resistant to poison. 35% chance of breaking upon contact. p) (nothing) q) (nothing) r) (nothing) s) (nothing) t) (nothing) u) (nothing) v) (nothing) w) (nothing) [Character Inventory] a) a Book of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners] Can be destroyed by fire. b) a Book of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks] Can be destroyed by fire. c) 2 Rations of Food Dropped by a Green glutton ghost at 1400 feet (level 28). d) 6 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by cold. e) a Potion of Cure Critical Wounds Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by cold. f) a Potion of Speed Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by cold. g) a Potion of Resist Poison Dropped by a Gnome mage at 700 feet (level 14). Can be destroyed by cold. h) 3 Potions of True Seeing Can be destroyed by cold. i) 8 Scrolls of Phase Door Can be destroyed by acid, fire. j) a Scroll of Teleportation Dropped by a Blue yeek at 1000 feet (level 20). Can be destroyed by acid, fire. k) 4 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger Can be destroyed by acid, fire. l) 3 Scrolls of Word of Recall Can be destroyed by acid, fire. m) a Scroll of Holy Chant Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by acid, fire. n) a Rod of Magic Mapping Found lying on the floor at 700 feet (level 14). Can be destroyed by electricity. o) 2 Wands of Stone to Mud (8 charges) Can be destroyed by electricity. p) a Wand of Sleep Monster (16 charges) Dropped by a Troll priest at 1650 feet (level 33). Can be destroyed by electricity. q) a Staff of Cure Light Wounds (8 charges) Dropped by a Forest wight at 1400 feet (level 28). Can be destroyed by acid, fire. r) a Staff of Teleportation (6 charges) Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by acid, fire. s) a Staff of Identify (8 charges) Can be destroyed by acid, fire. t) a Rapier of Lightning (3d2) (+10,+13) <+85..> Found lying on the floor at 1650 feet (level 33). Branded with venom (x1.79), lightning (x1.85). Provides resistance to lightning. Cannot be harmed by electricity. Can be destroyed by acid. Combat info: Receives 90% of your finesse score, 10% of your prowess score. 2.8 blows/round. 1.1x damage multiplier. Average damage/round: 12.5 vs. normal creatures, 22.2 vs. creatures not resistant to electricity, 21.3 vs. creatures not resistant to poison. [Home Inventory] a) a Book of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners] Can be destroyed by fire. b) a Book of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks] Can be destroyed by fire. c) a Scroll of Remove Curse Bought from a store. Can be destroyed by acid, fire. d) 4 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger Can be destroyed by acid, fire. e) 3 Scrolls of Word of Recall Can be destroyed by acid, fire. f) a Staff of Identify (8 charges) Can be destroyed by acid, fire. g) a Ring of Searching <+2> Found lying on the floor at 650 feet (level 13). +10% to searching. Can be destroyed by electricity. h) a Ring of Delving <+4> Dropped by a Snaga at 850 feet (level 17). +4 tunneling. Can be destroyed by electricity. i) a Tough Pair of Sandals of Free Action [2,+3] Dropped by a Blue yeek at 1000 feet (level 20). Can be destroyed by acid, fire. Prevents paralysis. j) 19 Journeyman's Sling Shots of Venom (4d3) (+45,+71) <+84..> Dropped by Orfax, Son of Boldor at 1000 feet (level 20). Branded with venom (x1.51), flames (x1.84). Cannot be harmed by fire. ============================================================ CHAR. | TURN | DEPTH |LEVEL| EVENT ============================================================ 1 0' 1 Began the quest to destroy Morgoth. 3022 100' 2 Reached level 2 7710 200' 3 Reached level 3 10471 200' 3 Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's dog 10471 200' 4 Reached level 4 11206 200' 4 Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog 15192 200' 5 Reached level 5 21262 250' 6 Reached level 6 29978 300' 7 Reached level 7 34907 400' 8 Reached level 8 49045 500' 9 Reached level 9 59587 600' 10 Reached level 10 62005 650' 11 Reached level 11 70493 650' 12 Reached level 12 83629 700' 13 Reached level 13 97968 700' 14 Reached level 14 116100 850' 15 Reached level 15 134628 850' 16 Reached level 16 147577 850' 16 Killed Lagduf, the Snaga 169892 1000' 17 Reached level 17 195177 950' 18 Reached level 18 204964 1000' 18 Killed Orfax, Son of Boldor 218317 1400' 19 Reached level 19 245178 1650' 20 Reached level 20 [Options] Maximise effect of race/class bonuses : yes (birth_maximize) Randomise the artifacts (except a very few) : no (birth_randarts) Restrict the use of stairs/recall : no (birth_ironman) Restrict the use of stores/home : no (birth_no_stores) Restrict creation of artifacts : no (birth_no_artifacts) Don't stack objects on the floor : no (birth_no_stacking) Lose artifacts when leaving level : no (birth_no_preserve) Don't generate connected stairs : no (birth_no_stairs) Don't show level feelings : no (birth_no_feelings) Items always sell for 0 gold : no (birth_no_selling) Use previous set of randarts : yes (birth_keep_randarts) Monsters chase recent locations : yes (birth_ai_smell) Monsters act smarter in groups : yes (birth_ai_packs) Monsters learn from their mistakes : no (birth_ai_learn) Monsters exploit player's weaknesses : no (birth_ai_cheat) Monsters behave more intelligently (broken) : no (birth_ai_smart)Comment
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I've had similar concerns lurking in the back of my mind but never really got a chance to fully playtest a finesse character. Finesse and prowess weapons really ought to have the same average damage per round when used by appropriately-skilled characters; prowess characters maybe slightly higher due to the fact they hit less often, but not hugely so. But prowess weapons nearly universally have better dice than finesse weapons do.
If you want to go through the edit files and propose changes to the damage dice on weapons, feel free to do so.
Incidentally, last I heard missile combat was still semi-broken, so it's sadly no real surprise that shooting things didn't work very well.
Hmm...as part of our efforts to remove the pure-tedium gameplay of identifying everything in sight before using it, ID-by-use has been made much less punishing. To allow for this, the vast majority of bad/cursed items were removed. Thus the player is never outright slapped for daring to try using something when they don't know what it is (though of course you can still be e.g. teleported into the middle of pack of monsters).I think it's easier because there aren't curses on equipment, there's less really bad equipment, less bad potions (I only hit one potion of saltwater), and generally the game seems less vindictive for making careless mistakes. I wish v4 were nastier (isn't getting screwed for being careless what this game is all about?).
Aside from that, though, it may well be that the game doesn't punish gameplay mistakes as harshly as it could. Again, if you have ideas for how that could be fixed, feel free to speak up.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but I haven't yet convinced Magnate of this. Not that I've been making a concerted effort, mind.Weapons with brands and such don't seem a whole lot better than regular weapons
Excellent. Exactly as planned.Things I really liked:
first time running into a baby chaos drake and hallucinating wildly at Dlvl 17 or so. It was punishing, but it wore off in a few rounds so wasn't totally evil. Also gave me an early taste of what the deeper bits of the dungeon might be like.
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This has been niggling at me too, but in a different direction. Finesse characters are always going to have problems with absorption, that's a design feature. The OP is right that it doesn't matter how many blows they get if the damage is always so low as to be absorbed. But upping the dice just dilutes the precious distinction between fin and prow, and is IMO the wrong solution. I think the solution lies in making the critical hit calculation asymmetric. At the moment it's fin^2 + prow^2 (all divided by a scaling constant), but I think it ought to favour finesse. Prowess crits are much more deadly, so should be rare. Finesse crits merely enable the finesse character to do a little more damage with that blow, and should be much more common.
So my first suggestion for balancing this issue would be to double or triple the contribution of finesse to the crit chance (and adjust the scalar so that the total number of crits does not increase too much).Missile combat is still using the old system, but damage shouldn't be too awful. But as soon as RL gives me a break I will adapt it to the new system and it will be splendid.Incidentally, last I heard missile combat was still semi-broken, so it's sadly no real surprise that shooting things didn't work very well.This is another of the very important changes in v4 - brands and slays are no longer quite so awesome when first found, quite deliberately so. It means they can occur earlier, and later in greater numbers and permutations. This means adjusting our perceptions a bit:I'm inclined to agree with you, but I haven't yet convinced Magnate of this. Not that I've been making a concerted effort, mind.
- yes, a dagger (1d4) (+0,+0) with a +25% slay against orcs is a long way short of the weakest Slay Orc dagger you'd find in V
- but a late game Scythe of Slicing with +225% against dragons and +285% against demons and +150% elec and a couple of others is going to compete very nicely with many artifacts.
So what's happened is that the range of slays and brands available has extended in both directions.
Note that slays matter slightly more for finesse characters, because they don't boost the prowess damage. The formula is dice_damage * (100 + best applicable brand/slay + prowess bonus)%. So the challenge is to avoid them becoming too powerful for finesse chars or irrelevant to prowess chars."Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The BeatlesComment
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I wonder if some of the original feel could be brought back (without being instadeath for ironman warriors) by doing things like:
for bad potions (sleep/blind) keep the duration reasonably small (say 10 turns). If you're foolish/desperate enough to take an untried potion in the middle of a fight, you might be in trouble, but you should be safe trying it in a little corridor tucked away from the scary monsters. Possibly make these less "junky" by allowing them to be thrown for their effect? I like what was done with mushrooms where they have some very interesting combinations of good and bad effects, but I think that theme is already taken.
Curses used to make weapons both junk and sticky. What if they just did one of a few things:
make the item sticky (but not bad)
reduce player speed slightly (-1 or -2)
reduce player stealth slightly
random blink (low probability)
random aggravate monster
decrease light radius (-1)
increase vulnerability to elements
Rather than a "oops, it feels deathly cold," the presence of the curse would be up to the player to figure out. And, of course, cursed items would show up as "magical".
If I were playing the game and I saw a nice weapon of Breaking Heads that would bring my damage way up, it would be possible that I would wield it and get it stuck to me. This wouldn't be instadeath, but I'd definitely be motivated to find some remove curse. At the same time, it would be enough to discourage me from unwielding a good weapon to try out a broken dagger (1,1) {splendid}.
In combination with really nice egos, some cursed weapons might even be worth keeping.Comment
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I have two concerns with this. The first is that critical hits are very opaque to the player -- they don't know what their crit chance is, how it scales, or how it affects their damage. They can kiiiiiind of guess at how significant they are based on the messages they get in combat and the changes they see to the monster's health bar, but it's a very imprecise science and Vanilla (and v4 by extension) are all about transparency these days.
The second is that balancing combat this way will require a lot of tweaking, and every tweak will require changing a number, recompiling, and then playtesting for awhile. I don't see that oscillating towards a balanced version very quickly.
The advantages of adjusting the dice, by comparison, are:
1) It makes it clear to the player that finesse characters are not being discriminated against.
2) It's far easier to balance -- we know what the proper values should be, by comparison with the prowess weapons
3) It's far easier to change -- just tweak the edit files and rerun the game. So anyone can do it.
We needn't lose variety in finesse vs. prowess weapons in this -- finesse weapons get many small dice, while prowess weapons get a few big dice. If you want to make crits more significant for finesse characters, then we can reverse that -- since crits add extra dice, having big dice is an advantage.
The practical upshot of this approach is that brands/slays give you a fixed amount of "extra dice" depending on their multiplier. E.g. a .5x brand gives you half your damage dice again when applied. That's not especially appreciable. Of course, since it's an additive effect it has more impact for finesse characters, since they get so many more blows than prowess characters do. But finesse characters have terrible damage dice, making the slays irrelevant again! Either way, slays are just not very impressive right now.- but a late game Scythe of Slicing with +225% against dragons and +285% against demons and +150% elec and a couple of others is going to compete very nicely with many artifacts.
The formula is dice_damage * (100 + best applicable brand/slay + prowess bonus) / 100%.
If we changed it to be
dice_damage * (100 + best applicable brand/slay) * (100 + prowess bonus) / 10000
then it'd work better. Instead of getting extra dice, your dice get an extra multiplier. A .5x brand deals 50% more damage than a "bare" blow, regardless of what your prowess bonus is. Compare:
6x 1d4 dagger blows with a 50% prowess bonus:
6 * (average dice 2.5) * (100 no slay) * (150 prowess) / 10000 = 22.5 damage/round
1.5x 1d4 club blows with a 500% prowess bonus:
1.5 * (average dice 2.5) * (100 no slay) * (600 prowess) / 10000 = 22.5
Now apply a .5x flame brand to both:
6 * 2.5 * 150 * 150 / 10000 = 33.75
1.5 * 2.5 * 150 * 600 / 10000 = 33.75
Of course, in practice your prowess character will be using a 2d8 battle axe or something instead, and will thus get much more damage, but see the earlier part of this post.Comment
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Ok, I'm convinced. On iPhone so not typing much. I agree that slays could be multiplied rather than added, which would be both fairer and more meaningful- thanks for spelling out the maths on that. Happy for ppl to change dice for fin weapons and see if that works. Crit dam is included in combat info; it's easy to show crit chance if that helps."Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The BeatlesComment
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I was thinking along similar lines re dice.
It feels to me like finesse fighters should successfully hit more frequently with less, but more consistent damage per hit. Prowess fighters should hit less frequently, with more variation in power, but higher average damage. This would work well to the different playstyles as finesse classes (mage, rogue, ranger) tend to have lower HP and want to use melee to finish monsters off and conserve ammo/mana. They want to be pretty confident they can put the final blow on a monster and not screw up. By contrast prowess characters have HP or even heal spells so a miss or relatively ineffective blow here or there is less meaningful than average power.
The other thing this would seem to argue to me is that finesse crits might do something different from prowess crits-- rather than dealing extra damage, they might merely reduce the impact of AC (well-placed blow). For lightly armored monsters, this would make prowess more effective, but it would eliminate the severe annoyance of watching my dagger bounce uselessly off a gray snake at Dlvl3.
All that said, I don't think finesse and prowess fighters should be equally good at melee. The goal should be to make finesse weapons clearly be better for finesse characters and to make melee a useful part of their combat tactics. Melee for each kind of fighter should feel distinct, just as the rest of the gameplay does.Comment
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Kinda OT, sorry
In attack.c lines 182 and 203, a value of 100 is assigned to "mult" and incremented by best applicable slay present, but mult doesn't seem to be used after that. Is that a remnant of previous versions that can be delete, is the calculation you describe never used or am I simply wrong here (my money would be on this one
).
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I think you mean it would make finesse more effective. I really like this idea, I think it's excellent. But I don't think that prowess should contribute to this kind of effect and vice versa - if we do this, then finesse shouldn't contribute to the traditional 'extra dice' crits. So we have two different crit functions, and balanced chars might see a few of both (which is nice, because we've been looking to incentivise balance, since the system naturally tempts people to go all-fin or all-prow).
I will think about this. Derakon, you like this too, right? ;-)Precisely. You've grasped what Derakon was aiming for with the new system, and I think we can get there.All that said, I don't think finesse and prowess fighters should be equally good at melee. The goal should be to make finesse weapons clearly be better for finesse characters and to make melee a useful part of their combat tactics. Melee for each kind of fighter should feel distinct, just as the rest of the gameplay does."Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The BeatlesComment
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Ooh, thank you, you've found some cruft! The logic that calculates and applies mult has been moved out of attack.c and into calc_damage(), which is called from line 207. (It's also called from the ranged attack functions and the object info functions, hence the sense of refactoring it.)In attack.c lines 182 and 203, a value of 100 is assigned to "mult" and incremented by best applicable slay present, but mult doesn't seem to be used after that. Is that a remnant of previous versions that can be delete, is the calculation you describe never used or am I simply wrong here (my money would be on this one).
I'll tidy up those unnecessary lines at the same time as changing the slay add logic (as described in earlier post).
Thanks again."Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The BeatlesComment
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You nailed it. When you combine that with prowess weapons having few big dice, finesse weapons having many small dice, then you get the obvious balanced weapon that has roughly even dice and die size. A balanced fighter might even do more damage than a prowess fighter since they would be more likely to get both kinds of critical on the same blow. I think this would work towards guaranteeing warriors are best at melee.
The one thing that strikes me as a bit annoying is that the strong temptation for finesse weapons would be to make them mostly nd1 since a n/2 d 2 weapon will be much more varied. Is there a way we could bring back the +d or mix kinds of dice so some finesse weapons could be e.g. 1d3 + 4.
The other thought I had is that if consistency is part of the charm for finesse, it sure would be nice to highlight the variation of damage to the user-- I love being able to see how much damage my weapon will do per round (nice job whoever wrote that). Possibly "against a lightly armored opponent, most rounds you will do between xxx and yyy damage with an average damage per round of zzz" where xxx and yyy are one standard deviation away from the mean.Comment
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So now all we need is for Derakon to say yes, that's what I wanted all along ...Wow, another good idea - come join the devteam! This would mean changing the weapon's base damage struct from a dice roll (XdY) to a random value struct (well, that's the nearest thing we have, though we wouldn't need the M-bonus component, just Z+XdY). It's not something that's ever occurred to me, but it would indeed increase the consistency of finesse weapons. Again interested to see how Derakon thinks this fits with his original vision for combat.The one thing that strikes me as a bit annoying is that the strong temptation for finesse weapons would be to make them mostly nd1 since a n/2 d 2 weapon will be much more varied. Is there a way we could bring back the +d or mix kinds of dice so some finesse weapons could be e.g. 1d3 + 4.Ugh. The more time I spend as a dev the more I understand why the Crawl people like to obfuscate the mechanics. The combat info code is a beast (the result of many contributions btw), and this would make it intolerable.The other thought I had is that if consistency is part of the charm for finesse, it sure would be nice to highlight the variation of damage to the user-- I love being able to see how much damage my weapon will do per round (nice job whoever wrote that). Possibly "against a lightly armored opponent, most rounds you will do between xxx and yyy damage with an average damage per round of zzz" where xxx and yyy are one standard deviation away from the mean.
That said, I could cope with a single additional number, if we could somehow calculate the std dev (no mean feat in integer arithmetic!). "Your weapon does X damage against A, Y damage against B ..... and Z damage against normal creatures (std dev S)".
But all damage info should assume 0 absorption, otherwise we have lots of mess for little gain."Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The BeatlesComment
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