Revamping combat

[Estie]

Random thoughts:

Who would use light weapons: imo the guy with 10 str 18 dex. 18 dex enables a few blows/round, but str 10 restricts that to light weapons. If he uses heavy weapons he gets fewer blows -> less damage, much like it is now for everyone. The guy with 18 str 10 dex can never get many blows/round (restricted by the 10 dex), so he wants a heavy weapon.

I think it is bad that the lategame takes place close to the global statcap for everyone. It would be better if the relation of the starting stats were preserved; maybe allow a certain fixed number of gain potions to take effect, the same amount for every stat. Even a halftroll who starts with maximum allowable str, drinks all of his alloted str potions and wears many items granting str should not reach the global str cap - i.e., if he finds another str item, he happily equips it because it gives more damage.

Yes, that means that the best type of endgame weapon depends on starting str/dex. A hobbit will never be able to make effective use of a MoD; but wether his most prefered type is a longsword or executioners sword depends on how many points he put into str at character creation. This doesnt bother me; if someone really wants to avoid it though, there are ways around, like making the stat gain maximum a bit random, or, heck, even not giving the player any points to distribute - so every hobbit rogue would start with the same stats.

[bio_hazard]

Sorry, I didn't mean to put you off - that's a perfectly good explanation, and I agree with you that V chars end up far too similar post-stat-gain. I misunderstood your original point is all.

No offense taken. I'm just having an off day, and let a bit of snark into my previous post.

Estie- I think that's a start. What if you earned a point of stat-gain capacity every level (or two). There could be some sort of hard cap so not all 50 get spent on CON. This would make gain 1 lose ones more valuable, and would somewhat diminish the temptation to sit at stat-gain depth without working to level up.

I kind of like the idea that beyond str/dex, some players might just have more aptitude with certain weapons in addition to the early game optimiziation issue.

[Magnate]

Hmmm. I think it's dangerous design to make stat choices made at birth affect the whole game. I'd prefer there to be ways in which people could correct or change their build without having to start over. Mind you, I guess you can always say that if I want to wield a MoD, I shouldn't choose a hobbit ... which is back to the point I made yesterday about how much we want in the way of race-specific rules.

[LostTemplar]

Easyest way will be to implement stats like in Unangband. So, you get some stats points every level, which can be invested in stats with diminishing returns and stat potions work like restore + temporary boost to a given stat.

Another good idea IMHO is to get rid of initial stats points, just make a given class/race have a given stats. It is allmost like this anyway. Everybody uses some proven best stat distribution.

[Magnate]

Another good idea IMHO is to get rid of initial stats points, just make a given class/race have a given stats. It is allmost like this anyway. Everybody uses some proven best stat distribution.

What do other people think about this idea? It has a lot of newbie-friendly appeal. It's how World of Warcraft does it, in fact, and IIUC there's no shortage of character customisation in that game ...

[fizzix]

What do other people think about this idea? It has a lot of newbie-friendly appeal. It's how World of Warcraft does it, in fact, and IIUC there's no shortage of character customisation in that game ...

I'm actually not a fan of this approach. I also disagree that it's newbie friendly, I think it's the opposite. It requires a player to know what stat would be most useful at clevel 50 when he gets to clevel 2.

Also, I thought Angband was designed to be around getting better equipment rather than grinding for levels.

[EpicMan]

I'm actually not a fan of this approach. I also disagree that it's newbie friendly, I think it's the opposite. It requires a player to know what stat would be most useful at clevel 50 when he gets to clevel 2.

Also, I thought Angband was designed to be around getting better equipment rather than grinding for levels.

I think Magnate is referring to how WOW race / class combos start with fixed stats (as opposed to distributing stat points) rather than choose which stats to boost at levelup.

Angband may not be about grinding for levels, but it is about grinding for stats (stat potions, etc) or at least it has been.

I second (third?) the fixed starting stats. It allows racial / class differentiation at the beginning of the game for free without any additional changes due to the different stats each starting combo will have.

And I think it is more newbie-friendly than expecting them to not only know which stats to boost, but what number to boost them to (e.g. Int 18/150 for mages, blows thresholds, etc).

Since the stat rolls have an average of 13, just replace the roll in chargen with +13 and you're done.

[Derakon]

I think Magnate is referring to how WOW race / class combos start with fixed stats (as opposed to distributing stat points) rather than choose which stats to boost at levelup.

Angband may not be about grinding for levels, but it is about grinding for stats (stat potions, etc) or at least it has been.

I second (third?) the fixed starting stats. It allows racial / class differentiation at the beginning of the game for free without any additional changes due to the different stats each starting combo will have.

And I think it is more newbie-friendly than expecting them to not only know which stats to boost, but what number to boost them to (e.g. Int 18/150 for mages, blows thresholds, etc).

Since the stat rolls have an average of 13, just replace the roll in chargen with +13 and you're done.

So, what, a Hobbit Warrior will start with a STR of only 16? 13 + 5 from class - 2 from race. That kind of thing is going to make the early game very hard unless we also completely rescale all of the stats (and/or the difficulty of all monsters up to stat gain) too. You could make the class bonuses and penalties more extreme (e.g. warriors get +8 STR instead of +5), but then we'd be basically just force-allocating the point-buy stuff for the player. Right now we suggest how the player would want to allocate their points instead. And usually it's a good suggestion! Newbie-wise the current system is plenty friendly.

This feels to me like a solution in search of a problem. Can someone better-motivate to me why this needs to be changed?

[buzzkill]

Use the standard roller for starting stats. Then use a variation of it again, again modified by race and class, to cap stats at a random amount (non 18/220) unknown to the player until they reach it.

[Derakon]

So I can play a character for 10 hours before discovering that his ultimate potential is below-average? No thanks.

Similarly, you can't force the player to accept random stats at the beginning of the game; they'll just keep creating new characters until they get ones they like.

I know you personally are against min-maxing, and that's totally fine, but I can't see any feasible way to allow customizing characters from the start without also allowing min-maxing. The best we can do is make certain that the "max" isn't too absurd.

[LostTemplar]

Random is bad, definitely. It simply does not fit, only provokes restarting until (allmost)best possible stats appear. You cannon make anyone to play bad char so why not have only one possibility, the best one.

[buzzkill]

~no rage eeee.

[Antoine]

I know you personally are against min-maxing, and that's totally fine, but I can't see any feasible way to allow customizing characters from the start without also allowing min-maxing. The best we can do is make certain that the "max" isn't too absurd.

The best cure to min-maxing is to make mins hurt.

A character with 6 Wis should be a sucker against enemy spells, a character with 4 Cha should be just about unable to use the shops and so forth.

A.

[andrewdoull]

Easyest way will be to implement stats like in Unangband. So, you get some stats points every level, which can be invested in stats with diminishing returns and stat potions work like restore + temporary boost to a given stat.

Another good idea IMHO is to get rid of initial stats points, just make a given class/race have a given stats. It is allmost like this anyway. Everybody uses some proven best stat distribution.

That's not quite correct. In Unangband, every few levels, you get multiple stat points to spend on abilities - however, you can only improve each ability once when you do so. Then, every 10 levels, you get 5 stat points, which mean you can boost almost all your stats.

This means you can't take advantage of the exponential curves quite so much as a single stat gain per level - and forces you to diversify a little.

Additionally every stat (including charisma) benefits (almost) every class. And you actually spend a fair amount of time missing monsters in melee - so to hit bonuses are much more important than vanilla. And so on.

It does require quite a big redesign.

[Magnate]

It does require quite a big redesign.

With hindsight, how much would you say that you set out right at the start of developing Un, and how much occurred incrementally as you went along (change one thing, realise that something else would be better slightly different, etc.)? Is there a particular blog post (or three) that sets out your vision for melee combat? And if so, how close to that vision did you end up?