Monster list tweaking

[fizzix]

I've been thinking about doing some significant monster list tweaking for a while now, and I've started gathering my thoughts together. The main problem I wish to solve is that non-unique monsters top out at level 79. I'd like to move that to about dlevel 95, with the deepest monsters likely being the Pit fiend and the Great Wyrm of Balance.

So there will essentially be a linear shift of about 15 levels of all monsters deeper than level 50 or so, and the monsters between 1-50 will be spread out sublinearly. With some exceptions. XP gain will be lowered in almost all cases to account for the fact that the monster is deeper. I need to calculate exactly how much to adjust that, I have not done this yet.

Monsters that appear in groups will in general be moved deeper than the standard shift. Except for nuisance monsters (i.e. elemental hounds and crebain) and some other exceptions (mumaks, jackals)

Monsters with powerful non-elemental breaths will be moved deeper (i.e. drolem, jabberwock, many hounds)

Ancient and mature dragons will be beefed up and deepened. I'll dig up the thread where I describe these changes.

Uniques will be moved differently, I haven't quite figured out how. I do know that there are some constraints. The Lernean Hydra is constrained to be as deep or deeper than the 11-headed hydra. Lungorthin will be as deep or deeper than greater balrogs. Qlzqqlzuup will be as deep or deeper than a master quylthulg.

There may also be some changes to individual monsters. I'm almost definitely going to give lightning bolt to shimmering molds. I'm thinking of giving death molds teleport-to. Ticks and beetles will get even more of a boost to AC.

Some items will need to be adjusted. I actually think the wands and rods of elemental balls and bolts will be fine. However, =poison will be moved to dlevel 50, and _healing, _banishment, _magi will be dlevel 85. Stat gain potions will likely be deepened.

What other problems are there currently with the monster list? What changes would you like to see?

[Nomad]

What other problems are there currently with the monster list? What changes would you like to see?

I think non-uniques with high HP probably need to be moved deeper in v4. Melee, missile damage and AC are all typically much lower than at equivalent depths in Vanilla, which makes it really tough to tackle anything that takes a lot of hits to finish off. My last Dwarven warrior was still desperately fleeing from a lot of hydras and golems a good 10 or 15 levels past their native depth.

[fizzix]

I think non-uniques with high HP probably need to be moved deeper in v4. Melee, missile damage and AC are all typically much lower than at equivalent depths in Vanilla, which makes it really tough to tackle anything that takes a lot of hits to finish off. My last Dwarven warrior was still desperately fleeing from a lot of hydras and golems a good 10 or 15 levels past their native depth.

ok, that's good to keep in mind. Magnate has plans for some long overdue combat changes, and that is likely to necessitate some adjustment of monster HP. But for now, I'm going to leave that alone. I will deepen them as appropriate though.

[Derakon]

Why give Death Molds teleport-to? They aren't meant to be meleed, so forcing the player into melee range seems mean-spirited.

In fact giving shimmering molds a lightning bolt also seems counter to the concept of the mold enemy to me. They sit there, get in the way, and wreck you if you get into melee with them. That's their job, and they do it just fine.

Why bother moving =rPoison deeper? If the player wants to dedicate a ring slot to resisting poison before they enter drolem depths, I say let 'em. Drolems are sufficiently nasty that I have absolutely no problem with the player getting the necessary counter before they're likely to start encountering them -- same as with free action. Especially since that counter comes on a valuable ring slot.

Also keep in mind that if you move dangerous enemies deeper, you're effectively making deeper items easier to acquire -- in two ways. First, if you kill the monster out of depth, you get a deeper base level for the item. Second, deeper levels will be easier to reach because the monsters guarding that level have gone even deeper.

Your other changes sound fine.

[fizzix]

Why give Death Molds teleport-to? They aren't meant to be meleed, so forcing the player into melee range seems mean-spirited.

In fact giving shimmering molds a lightning bolt also seems counter to the concept of the mold enemy to me. They sit there, get in the way, and wreck you if you get into melee with them. That's their job, and they do it just fine.

Why bother moving =rPoison deeper? If the player wants to dedicate a ring slot to resisting poison before they enter drolem depths, I say let 'em. Drolems are sufficiently nasty that I have absolutely no problem with the player getting the necessary counter before they're likely to start encountering them -- same as with free action. Especially since that counter comes on a valuable ring slot.

Also keep in mind that if you move dangerous enemies deeper, you're effectively making deeper items easier to acquire -- in two ways. First, if you kill the monster out of depth, you get a deeper base level for the item. Second, deeper levels will be easier to reach because the monsters guarding that level have gone even deeper.

Your other changes sound fine.

These are good points. The reason for giving shimmering molds lightning bolts is that they are already a very deep monster for seemingly no reason. I think their depth goes way back to when electricity resistance was hard (or impossible?) to get. Disenchanter molds have drain mana, so there is a precedent for giving ranged attacks.

The reasoning for death molds is that they're sentient, so I figure they should have some option of doing something besides sitting there. Maybe you can suggest something else?

=poison is not for drolems, but rather for the intermediate poison breathers, air hounds, basilisks, winged horrors. When I started playing =rpoison seemed a lot rarer than it currently is, but maybe that was bad gameplay.

Also there are other unintended consequences with moving monsters deeper besides item drops. Deeper monsters can summon stronger monsters, but are harder to be summoned themselves. Deeper monsters have better to-hit on melee, and missile/ball/curse damage is higher. Only breaths, which depend on HP don't improve with added depth.

[Derakon]

These are good points. The reason for giving shimmering molds lightning bolts is that they are already a very deep monster for seemingly no reason. I think their depth goes way back to when electricity resistance was hard (or impossible?) to get. Disenchanter molds have drain mana, so there is a precedent for giving ranged attacks.

The reasoning for death molds is that they're sentient, so I figure they should have some option of doing something besides sitting there. Maybe you can suggest something else?

The simple solution to shimmering molds, then, is to make them shallower. As for death molds and disenchanter molds, there's a realm of difference between drain mana and teleport-to, especially when the target you're being teleported next to moves incredibly quickly and hits to disenchant. If you really feel that death molds need a ranged option, give them some of the heavier curse spells...but personally I still think they're fine the way they are.

=poison is not for drolems, but rather for the intermediate poison breathers, air hounds, basilisks, winged horrors. When I started playing =rpoison seemed a lot rarer than it currently is, but maybe that was bad gameplay.

Rings of resist poison used to be very rare indeed, something more or less like having a native depth of 60 when you wanted them at dungeon level 40. This lead to many players just hanging around at level 40 waiting for the ring to pass the necessary out-of-depth checks before they would dare descend deeper into the dungeon. Of course, we now know that it's not a death sentence to go into drolem territory without poison resistance, but I still think that if the player wants to dedicate a ring slot to that, they should be allowed to, pretty much at any point in the game. Sell 'em in the magic store and I wouldn't mind.

Also there are other unintended consequences with moving monsters deeper besides item drops. Deeper monsters can summon stronger monsters, but are harder to be summoned themselves. Deeper monsters have better to-hit on melee, and missile/ball/curse damage is higher. Only breaths, which depend on HP don't improve with added depth.

Fair points, though I expect the impact of all of these will be rather less than the impact of allowing the player to survive at X depth with worse gear than used to be feasible since Y monsters no longer show up at that depth.

I do agree with your overall goal, though. Smoothing things out so the last 20 dungeon levels aren't just a uniques hunt is a good idea. Have you considered adding new monsters as well? I made a thread awhile back which had some ideas, though mostly they'd fill in the mid range, not the deep end.

[Zyphyr]

I do agree with your overall goal, though. Smoothing things out so the last 20 dungeon levels aren't just a uniques hunt is a good idea. Have you considered adding new monsters as well? I made a thread awhile back which had some ideas, though mostly they'd fill in the mid range, not the deep end.

Adding to the midrange would be of some value for a project like this. If you add to the middle, then you can push things that are currently there outwards a bit without reducing the variation found in that range.

[nppangband]

All of the object, ego-item, and artifact depths will have to be adjusted as well, in order to preserve game balance.

[fizzix]

All of the object, ego-item, and artifact depths will have to be adjusted as well, in order to preserve game balance.

ego-item and artifacts have already been significantly changed in v4. Both are much rarer. So really the concern is objects.

I agree with the suggestions of more midgame/endgame monsters. I'll check to see if any are poachable from Derakon's thread. But if you have more suggestions, it'd be great to hear them.

[nppangband]

ego-item and artifacts have already been significantly changed in v4. Both are much rarer. So really the concern is objects.

I agree with the suggestions of more midgame/endgame monsters. I'll check to see if any are poachable from Derakon's thread. But if you have more suggestions, it'd be great to hear them.

NOT trying to be a stick in the mud, but I just had one more concern. What about Shockbolt's tiles? I think he finally finished the set, now he seems to be on a little break. Is he on board with drawing more monsters for Angband?

[fizzix]

NOT trying to be a stick in the mud, but I just had one more concern. What about Shockbolt's tiles? I think he finally finished the set, now he seems to be on a little break. Is he on board with drawing more monsters for Angband?

Good point. I'll hold off on incorporating more monsters, and just work on moving monsters deeper.

Black Reavers may be too powerful if moved deeper because of their mana storm attack...at dlevel 92 they average 520 damage per mana storm. That's unacceptable, right?

[Derakon]

Another thing to keep in mind: the depth vs. monster danger level curve should not be smooth. In other words, there should be monsters that are significantly more dangerous than their in-depth brethren. Black reavers are an excellent example of this and should stay right where they are (at level 74).

[fizzix]

Another thing to keep in mind: the depth vs. monster danger level curve should not be smooth. In other words, there should be monsters that are significantly more dangerous than their in-depth brethren. Black reavers are an excellent example of this and should stay right where they are (at level 74).

I've heard this before, and I'm not sure I agree with it. I'd rather have the non-smoothness arise through OoD monster spawning. I think inspection of what the monster level is should give a reasonably good indication of how dangerous it is.

Playing around with the deeper part of the dungeon today, this is what I have:

level 77
Great storm wyrm
great ice wyrm 
great swamp wyrm

level 78
chaos hound
feagwath
archlich

level 79
greater titan
atlas
bone golem

level 80
glaurung
great hell wyrm
great bile wyrm

level 81
nightcrawler
great wyrm of thunder

level 82
ungoliant
gelugon

level 83
time hound
draugluin

level 84
jabberwock
witch-king

level 85
pazuzu
horned reaper

level 86
greater quylthulgs

level 87
aether hound
maeglin

level 88
master quylthulg
cantoras

level 89
qlzqqlzuup
bronze golem

level 90
nightwalker
kronos

level 91
great wyrm of law
tarrasque

level 92
great wyrm of chaos
black reaver (will have to be moved)

level 93
great wyrm of many colors
lungorthin
greater balrog

level 94
huan
carcharoth

level 95
great wyrm of balance
pit fiend

level 96
vecna

level 97
ancalagon

level 98
gothmog

level 99
sauron

level 100
morgoth

[myshkin]

Also there are other unintended consequences with moving monsters deeper besides item drops. Deeper monsters can summon stronger monsters, but are harder to be summoned themselves. Deeper monsters have better to-hit on melee, and missile/ball/curse damage is higher. Only breaths, which depend on HP don't improve with added depth.

Should we consider making an individual monster's level a function of its race's native depth, the dungeon level on which it appears, and/or some random variation, instead of all black reavers having the same power level? I guess that's partway to the ego monster concept.

[Timo Pietilä]

I've heard this before, and I'm not sure I agree with it.

So you prefer every monster being easy to predict and kill at their corresponding depth? You add boredom with smoothness, unless you also make sure that game creates very OoD monsters every now and then and pretty much every level has some OoD monster.