More thoughts on v4

[Derakon]

Play a human priest next and see if you still think it's good. Radius-1 doesn't matter if you have infravision. The problem is with no-infravision characters.

While you may well have a point, I don't think that it's enough to take torches back to radius 2. The vast majority of characters won't have a problem; those that do can simply suffer until they get a lantern. Or experiment with ekolis's suggestion. *shrug*

My main issue with the auto-allocator is that it sunk 12 allocation points into a single stat. That should practically never happen IMO, since the diminishing returns on that last point are so bad (4 allocation points for 1 stat point).

Timo: good call on the dwarven digging bonus. I'd forgotten about that. If any race should be able to bash down walls with their bare hands, it should be the dwarves. I still think that bashing down doors at 50' should be a fairly trivial matter for any warrior though; currently such doors appear to be basically impassible. Shouldn't bashing down a door be strictly easier than, say, tunneling through a magma vein? In fact, why not allow 'T'unneling through doors?

[bio_hazard]

* I found a Whip of Piety with known properties "of Piety, of Piety". I automatically recognized the rune, perhaps because I'd seen a weapon of Piety in a store?

I'd be in favor of removing the ability to learn runes from browsing store inventory. Fine if you want to buy something and sell it back- the price difference is then the cost for learning that rune. Otherwise, it seems to encourage a rather tedious activity of inspecting undiscovered items in stores. This would also seem to be an unnecessary penalty for playing ironman or other options with non-standard store access.

We can imagine the items are all in the back of the store, and the storekeeper has a catalog.

If we want to keep learning from store inventories, how about giving the player a message that we just learned a rune (could apply to ID-ing by use or magic in the dungeon as well).

Also- this might have been addressed before, but the way runes are categorized gives some information in an n-1 degrees of freedom sort of way. For example, I learned the runes for resisting acid, cold and fire. this left one unknown elemental rune (lightning), that by process of elimination I as a player knew although my character did not yet know it. I think I would support also allowing the character to know right away what rLighting is, if we are assuming they know there are four basic elements.

[fizzix]

While you may well have a point, I don't think that it's enough to take torches back to radius 2. The vast majority of characters won't have a problem; those that do can simply suffer until they get a lantern. Or experiment with ekolis's suggestion. *shrug*

It's possible that my strongest objections would go away if we gave certain monsters the LIGHT attribute. Specifically, floating eyes, radiation eyes, bloodshot eyes, disenchanter eyes, red molds (already have it), and disenchanter molds. Most of these monsters seem like they should have LIGHT based on their descriptions.

If people think radius-1 light makes for good gameplay, then I guess it should stay.

My main issue with the auto-allocator is that it sunk 12 allocation points into a single stat. That should practically never happen IMO, since the diminishing returns on that last point are so bad (4 allocation points for 1 stat point).

Ok, I'll look at the code again. Maybe I could set the limit to 8 with minimal problems.

[Timo Pietilä]

If people think radius-1 light makes for good gameplay, then I guess it should stay.

I see two approach to that:

1) keep radius one in order to have real benefit from finding/buying lantern
2) remove torches

Radius 2 torches are just weaker form of lantern. There is no real difference between two, except that torches are a bit more annoying to use.

Radius 1 torch is different from lantern, making transition to lantern a reward.

I think this is a diver-dilemma. Divers have used to been able to dive early levels like if they were never there. This has been made possible by some of the latest changes in game, it wasn't that easy earlier. One reason to that is radius 2 torches. Early levels are less dangerous when you can see danger before you step right next to it. Difference between seeing danger one turn earlier is a big benefit.

[buzzkill]

Or experiment with ekolis's suggestion. *shrug*

As long as we already have 'fuzzy' detection, why not implement this (v4). You (think you) see 'something' just outside the radius of your torchlight. It works thematically and for gameplay. Maybe press s to squint .

If not, walking into a floating eyes isn't necessarily death. You do get a save, right? And if the reaper does prevail, a infant character so unconcerned with his longevity that he couldn't be bothered to find a lantern bites the dust, big deal!

Orcs carry torches... cause theer shtupid, are oyu?

This post courtesy of Great Lakes Brewing Co.

[Napsterbater]

It's an edge case, I think - I can't remember the last time I met a mimic in a corridor which gave itself away that way. I tend to find most of them in rooms, and those I find in corridors have usually woken up before that happens.

Many thanks for the report.

You could make mimics behave exactly as items up until a player invades its space or just gets in attack range. Monsters can walk over them. Maybe have area of effect spells silently decrease its health.

[Derakon]

I fired up my dwarf again, so here's some more thoughts:

* The burden information from the inventory display is gone. It was useful for checking how close I was to overloading; could we please have it back?

* I picked up a scimitar: "You have a Scimitar of Piety (4d2) {splendid}." A turn later: "You feel the Scimitar of Piety (u) in your pack is splendid..." Inspecting it also didn't list the unknown runes on the item, even though i t also said I didn't know the full extent of its powers.

* Thoughts on squelching: it seems like a good place to start would be "squelch all items of this base type that have at most these runes." That is, if I find e.g. a Stone Awl-Pike of Sharpness and squelch it with that option, then all Awl-Pikes that have the Stone, Sharpness, or Stone + Sharpness runes would be squelched. And of course the option to extend that to hafted weapons as well. Players should be able to say "This particular combination of runes is not desirable in any circumstance" while leaving the door open for that combination plus other runes to still be desirable.

* Digging up treasure is representing a significant portion of my income at this point, aided significantly by the Gloves of Digging [3,+3] (+2) I picked up for a song from the Black Market for a mere 900AU. I am playing no-selling, though, which inflates the value of treasure seams.

* Eating a ration took me straight from not-full to gorged. I thought that wasn't possible. Oh well.

* Throwing a Tough Jerkin of Protection broke it. Armor, especially soft armor, probably shouldn't break easily.

* Early uniques are a lot more dangerous without strong weapons. I've burned !Speed on practically every one I've encountered...assuming I didn't just run away. As of clvl 25 I'm still dealing only 48 damage/round; 300HP isn't really enough to survive melee with these guys at that damage rate.

* I spotted some mithril coins sitting in a room, thought "Ah! A mimic!" (it being far too early for mithril to show up on the floor at all often), and fired a bolt at them. The bolt just landed to the side. It was a mimic, of course; are we not allowed to reveal them with ranged attacks? What about spells?

* In retrospect, colbrans are freaking terrifying. Fast, durable, 520 hitpoints, frequent casters, and they start showing up at 1350'! Even with using a speed potion I barely took that one down. Shortly thereafter a horde of black puddings showed up; with me at 1400' they're out of depth by 9 levels. The dungeon's certainly scarier than I remember it being...

* On that note, teleport away from black puddings, land next to Angamaite. Teleport away from Angamaite, land next to black puddings. Teleport away from black puddings, land next to Angamaite. Really, game? Really?

* Bows should probably not be made of diamond. Or at least, such should not make them better.

[sethos]

I fired up my dwarf again, so here's some more thoughts:

* The burden information from the inventory display is gone. It was useful for checking how close I was to overloading; could we please have it back?

* I picked up a scimitar: "You have a Scimitar of Piety (4d2) {splendid}." A turn later: "You feel the Scimitar of Piety (u) in your pack is splendid..." Inspecting it also didn't list the unknown runes on the item, even though i t also said I didn't know the full extent of its powers.

* Thoughts on squelching: it seems like a good place to start would be "squelch all items of this base type that have at most these runes." That is, if I find e.g. a Stone Awl-Pike of Sharpness and squelch it with that option, then all Awl-Pikes that have the Stone, Sharpness, or Stone + Sharpness runes would be squelched. And of course the option to extend that to hafted weapons as well. Players should be able to say "This particular combination of runes is not desirable in any circumstance" while leaving the door open for that combination plus other runes to still be desirable.

* Digging up treasure is representing a significant portion of my income at this point, aided significantly by the Gloves of Digging [3,+3] (+2) I picked up for a song from the Black Market for a mere 900AU. I am playing no-selling, though, which inflates the value of treasure seams.

* Eating a ration took me straight from not-full to gorged. I thought that wasn't possible. Oh well.

* Throwing a Tough Jerkin of Protection broke it. Armor, especially soft armor, probably shouldn't break easily.

* Early uniques are a lot more dangerous without strong weapons. I've burned !Speed on practically every one I've encountered...assuming I didn't just run away. As of clvl 25 I'm still dealing only 48 damage/round; 300HP isn't really enough to survive melee with these guys at that damage rate.

* I spotted some mithril coins sitting in a room, thought "Ah! A mimic!" (it being far too early for mithril to show up on the floor at all often), and fired a bolt at them. The bolt just landed to the side. It was a mimic, of course; are we not allowed to reveal them with ranged attacks? What about spells?

* In retrospect, colbrans are freaking terrifying. Fast, durable, 520 hitpoints, frequent casters, and they start showing up at 1350'! Even with using a speed potion I barely took that one down. Shortly thereafter a horde of black puddings showed up; with me at 1400' they're out of depth by 9 levels. The dungeon's certainly scarier than I remember it being...

* On that note, teleport away from black puddings, land next to Angamaite. Teleport away from Angamaite, land next to black puddings. Teleport away from black puddings, land next to Angamaite. Really, game? Really?

* Bows should probably not be made of diamond. Or at least, such should not make them better.

Sorry, But I actually laughed when I read the part about teleport. *GRIN* that really sucks.

But I like Diamond bows... they make great clubs, and they're all sparkly.

Otherwise, This seems like some good stuff... Maybe I should stop playing NPP for a little while... Maybe... urghh... Not easy.

[Guest]

Artifacts disappearing even with birth_no_preserve off

After several games with v4 I got a high-elf ranger deep enough in the dungeon and suddenly I started seeing extra entries in the artifact knowledge menu. Had a suspicion that it may be a bug, and I won't be getting those artifacts again.

So after a YASD, I started in debug mode, and sure enough, if I loiter around long enough, without collecting anything, I start seeing entries in the artifact history.

The way to repeat it, start a new character, power up for enough HP, jump to level 99 a few times (I would say about 20 times), and you must see some artifacts in history. And then if I generate thousands of great objects, I get other artifacts but not them.

I checked with 3.3 and this did not happen there.

So, I wonder, if this is indeed a bug, what will happen to the artifact spell books? It would be terrible if they are lost.

[Magnate]

* The burden information from the inventory display is gone. It was useful for checking how close I was to overloading; could we please have it back?

I don't think anyone removed this intentionally, though it was changed from % to lbs remaining. If anyone can corroborate this please open a ticket.

* I picked up a scimitar: "You have a Scimitar of Piety (4d2) {splendid}." A turn later: "You feel the Scimitar of Piety (u) in your pack is splendid..." Inspecting it also didn't list the unknown runes on the item, even though i t also said I didn't know the full extent of its powers.

Hmmm. The message sequencing is a known bug. I think the inspection issue is a case of runes interacting badly with the old pseudo tiers. It's splendid because it has Blessed, and you already know that rune. It has other properties you don't know, but which have no associated runes (e.g. modified damage dice). Not sure what if anything to do about this.

* Thoughts on squelching: it seems like a good place to start would be "squelch all items of this base type that have at most these runes." That is, if I find e.g. a Stone Awl-Pike of Sharpness and squelch it with that option, then all Awl-Pikes that have the Stone, Sharpness, or Stone + Sharpness runes would be squelched. And of course the option to extend that to hafted weapons as well. Players should be able to say "This particular combination of runes is not desirable in any circumstance" while leaving the door open for that combination plus other runes to still be desirable.

Change "rune" to "affix" and that's exactly how it works. You can squelch individual affixes on all items, or on individual base item types (tvals), and the item will be squelched if you have chosen to squelch all its affixes. (We use affixes instead of runes for precisely the issue you note above: not all properties can be represented by runes.)

* Digging up treasure is representing a significant portion of my income at this point, aided significantly by the Gloves of Digging [3,+3] (+2) I picked up for a song from the Black Market for a mere 900AU. I am playing no-selling, though, which inflates the value of treasure seams.

That sounds pretty cool to me, though I am still of the view that nobody (even Dwarves) should be able to dig without a digging bonus somewhere on their equipment.

* Eating a ration took me straight from not-full to gorged. I thought that wasn't possible. Oh well.

Neither did I. You're sure it wasn't Waybread?

* Throwing a Tough Jerkin of Protection broke it. Armor, especially soft armor, probably shouldn't break easily.

Personally I think the breakage chance should move from tval to k_idx. It seems silly to me that all bladed weapons (or all lights, or whatever) would have exactly the same breakage chance.

* I spotted some mithril coins sitting in a room, thought "Ah! A mimic!" (it being far too early for mithril to show up on the floor at all often), and fired a bolt at them. The bolt just landed to the side. It was a mimic, of course; are we not allowed to reveal them with ranged attacks? What about spells?

Maybe you just missed with the bolt? I think attacking (successfully) by any means does wake them up.

* In retrospect, colbrans are freaking terrifying. Fast, durable, 520 hitpoints, frequent casters, and they start showing up at 1350'! Even with using a speed potion I barely took that one down. Shortly thereafter a horde of black puddings showed up; with me at 1400' they're out of depth by 9 levels. The dungeon's certainly scarier than I remember it being...

Good. I've always had colbrans on my hate list, since one killed one of my very first characters.

* On that note, teleport away from black puddings, land next to Angamaite. Teleport away from Angamaite, land next to black puddings. Teleport away from black puddings, land next to Angamaite. Really, game? Really?

This is depressingly common with certain dungeon layouts. You can end up in a situation where all the legal targets of a teleport are in one room, exactly as you experienced. We should perhaps make the code more intelligent at looking farther afield (or less far) in those situations.

* Bows should probably not be made of diamond. Or at least, such should not make them better.

Think of it as "diamond-reinforced" rather than pure diamond. Or suggest some different affixes for launchers.

Thanks again for the observations - I hope it's more challenging in the good old days sense, rather than just irritating or tedious.

[Derakon]

So far it's definitely more challenging, not just more tedious. I've made it down to 2200' and have never really reached a point where I thought "Ah! Now I'm set for awhile!". Though buying a Ring of Speed +6 from the Black Market (for 49k AU -- I could just barely afford it after a quick hop back to the dungeon to murder some cutpurses) helped quite a bit. I went ahead and uploaded Barlowe to the ladder. From the notes I've made:

For the bow materials, how about Yew, Compound, and Laminate? I'm not an archer, mind, but there's plenty of historical "we're going to make these tweaks to how bows are put together to improve draw weight" that could replace the existing materials.

On a related materials note, you shouldn't be able to get dragon scale chain mail. You can't make rings from scales!

Some lucky finds:
* !Augmentation and "Sustenance from a minor vault at 1600'
* -DragonBreath at 1650'
* -Healing at 1700' from an iron chest
* ?Acquirement at 1800'

Other notes:
* It'd be nice if crows and crebains were colored differently. Or we could just remove crows altogether.

* I received a Low Hitpoint Warning when a monster cast a fear spell at me. Expected? Desired?

* I've encountered a lot of significantly out-of-depth monsters / situations. Not just the aforementioned puddings, but also e.g. Itangast 500' OOD, a Zoo at 2050', etc. Also plenty of small vaults, which is nice even if they rarely have anything notable.

* Notes still get cut off in the file well before they get cut off when you're writing them in-game.

* My first artifact was a set of greaves at 2050' which did nothing but give rDark and 20 AC. My weapon is still basically a frostbrand Main Gauche with +10 to-damage -- and I added three of those damage points myself.

* Rods of Recall seem to be a lot more common than they used to be. I've found three already and seen a fourth for sale.

* I get the message "Something fiddles with a lock" even when I can see the monster doing it (via telepathy). Wouldn't be surprised if the same applies to the bash-door message.

* My AC is noticeably lower than I'm used to at this stage -- before I found a cloak of Aman [3,+27] my AC was a mere 48, and the largest magical bonus to AC I've seen was less than 10.

* There's some kind of display bug with the monsters that have accented names -- messages involving them don't always get completely cleared after the message is dismissed, and the names themselves can have unusual spacing (IIRC Nar had an extra space in his name somewhere, e.g. "Nŕr, the Dwarf"). This may be platform-specific; I'm on OSX here.

* Character dumps don't include item details, as you can see in the ladder post. That's not a bug with the ladder; the dump file on my computer is also missing details.

Overall, the power curve is a lot slower than in Vanilla 3.3. Based on this one character, I think what could stand to change now is pushing back stat gain and then making magical pluses (AC/hit/dam) a bit more available. My character's maxed STR and DEX already and that's been the main avenue for increasing my damage, since weapons have consistently given only marginal upgrades. I don't think the game's too hard; I just feel like there should be some level of "the gear is better than the character" that happens before the character gets really into stat-gain.

For what it's worth, the only stat boost I'm getting from my gear right now is +2 WIS from my helm.

[Prismatic]

For the bow materials, how about Yew, Compound, and Laminate? I'm not an archer, mind, but there's plenty of historical "we're going to make these tweaks to how bows are put together to improve draw weight" that could replace the existing materials.

On a related materials note, you shouldn't be able to get dragon scale chain mail. You can't make rings from scales!

I'm not an archer either but these are probably okay (though compound bows are too recent, so a recurve bow is probably better). There is a minor issue in that one of those is a design while the others are materials and as such wouldn't be logically mutually exclusive, but it probably doesn't matter for game purposes.

Also, I'm just imagining an oversized dwarven hole-punch to put holes in the scales for the chainmail...

[myshkin]

There's some kind of display bug with the monsters that have accented names -- messages involving them don't always get completely cleared after the message is dismissed, and the names themselves can have unusual spacing (IIRC Nar had an extra space in his name somewhere, e.g. "Nŕr, the Dwarf"). This may be platform-specific; I'm on OSX here.

For what it's worth, I expect this behavior got introduced in the OS X UTF-8 changes. Can you be more specific about the incomplete clearing? I think I've seen the unusual spacing.

[bio_hazard]

I reported the text corruption in another thread (I'm also on OSX). Screen grabs linked in the post below.

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showpost.php?p=63128&postcount=18

[sethos]

For bows, you could use these materials:
Stonewood and Ironwood jump to mind from my D&D days (though that may have been something my group came up with)
Quickly: Stonewood was so hard that only a magicked weapon would be able to cut through it, and ironwood was just slightly less difficult to cut through. It would burn hotter and longer than any other wood (though It'd take magical fire to start). those could be very high end materials for bows.
Mithril Banded, Hemlock, Petrified, Entwood (ouch.) and Yew also sound like they'd be better quality (flavor-wise, anyways.)

So my list would be:
Stonewood, Ironwood, Entwood (ouch again), Mithril banded, Petrified, Hemlock, and yew. I think that might be a reasonable list for starters