v4: whither DSM?

[GeoffHill]

I think the breath activation should just be eliminated. It has never figured into a decision to wear (or not) a piece of DSM in any one of my games; it is just an unnecessary extra bonus for the player.

In fact, if you *want* there to be a useful DSM activation, a far more interesting choice would be to have it activate for additional temporary resistance. Warriors in particular have a hard time getting that extra layer of resist, especially for electricity. But I think an even better choice is to eliminate the activation entirely.

Oh, hmm. I disagree. I love it when a player finds a decent set of DSM that he can use to breathe. Especially at low-ish levels.

If anything I'd like to see it bumped up but with longer must wear or recharge so it is truly frightening and a valid choice instead of the same sets of ever present artificats.

[GeoffHill]

Why not have different activations for different pieces of equipment.

Helm- detect dragons (or breath)
Armor- Berserk? Temp AC Boost?
Shield- Temporary Resist
Gloves- bolt/ball/temp weapon brand?
Boots- ??? maybe detect treasure?

I also like the "breath gets more powerful/more damage types with more dragon scale item" option.

Within reason that has some merits. We just need to make sure the boosts are fairly modest. After all, realising that a helm you have in your backpack is "special" should always be the thing that makes you excited, so non-artifacts should be fun, occasionally powerful, but not enough to replace an entire wardrobe!

[Storm-Sky]

I think DSM activating for a breath weapon is a little silly, armor activating for a *breath Weapon* just defies logical sense to me, you already have wands of dragon breath, it's fits more into character with what it is, which is protective armor, so it makes sense to offer resistance based on the type of dragon scale used, gold, red, blue, etc.

[Jungle_Boy]

I like the idea of different activations depending on the armor slot. Armor could activate for breath as before, shield for temp resist, maybe something else for helm and then have no activation for boots/gloves

[Antoine]

I think DSM activating for a breath weapon is a little silly, armor activating for a *breath Weapon* just defies logical sense to me, you already have wands of dragon breath, it's fits more into character with what it is, which is protective armor, so it makes sense to offer resistance based on the type of dragon scale used, gold, red, blue, etc.

+1.

I think DSM should provide good AC, light weight and resistances (possibly double resist or immunity, in the case of elemental DSMs).

If that's not enough to make people wear it, then either
(a) AC is not important enough
(b) equipment weight is not important enough, or
(c) the amount of resistance is not enough.

It seems weird for something you wear on your body to give you a breath weapon. [EDIT: There is no precedent in D&D, Tolkien or other fantasy fiction AFAIK.]

Lastly can I say that it should be somehow possible to make DSM out of the corpse of a big enough dragon. Yes I know monsters don't currently leave corpses, but.

A.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Definetly do something else with this, breath attacks need to go, been a long time coming, I favor higher resistance, better protection, or immunities, possibly lighter weights, good armor for mages.

[Magnate]

+1.

I think DSM should provide good AC, light weight and resistances (possibly double resist or immunity, in the case of elemental DSMs).

Right on AC and resists, but where did you get the idea that they should be light? Dragons are huge, lumbering creatures, and dragon scales are heavier than normal armour in most literature.

It seems weird for something you wear on your body to give you a breath weapon. [EDIT: There is no precedent in D&D, Tolkien or other fantasy fiction AFAIK.]

Maybe not, but you argue strongly for maintaining the flavour of Angband, and there's not much that typifies Angband more than DSM granting a breath attack. IMO that's a good enough reason for a solution that retains a breath attack in there somewhere.

Lastly can I say that it should be somehow possible to make DSM out of the corpse of a big enough dragon. Yes I know monsters don't currently leave corpses, but.

Well, I thought I'd polish up affixes a bit before getting on to that ... ;-)

[Antoine]

I believe dragon scale is generally considered to be a light armor in modern fantasy gaming. I googled 'dragon scale armor light' and got 4 million hits; 'dragon scale armor heavy' and only 400,000 hits. I think people envisage something like crocodile skin.

> and there's not much that typifies Angband more than DSM granting a breath attack

Hmmm? Don't agree with that. I can think of a whole bunch of things that are more evocative of the traditional Angband flavor, (like Holy Avenger or Defender weapons, or Broken Swords and Filthy Rags, or Ringil and the thancs).

WHat was the first version of V in which DSM could be activated for a breath weapon?

A.

[Magnate]

I believe dragon scale is generally considered to be a light armor in modern fantasy gaming. I googled 'dragon scale armor light' and got 4 million hits; 'dragon scale armor heavy' and only 400,000 hits. I think people envisage something like crocodile skin.

Well, very happy to continue disagreeing with you on that.

> and there's not much that typifies Angband more than DSM granting a breath attack

Hmmm? Don't agree with that. I can think of a whole bunch of things that are more evocative of the traditional Angband flavor, (like Holy Avenger or Defender weapons, or Broken Swords and Filthy Rags, or Ringil and the thancs).

... and that.

WHat was the first version of V in which DSM could be activated for a breath weapon?

I don't know, but I'd bet that it's the first version in which any wearable item could be activated to do anything.

[kaypy]

WHat was the first version of V in which DSM could be activated for a breath weapon?

In the same ballpark as the first version that wasn't Moria, but the transition is a little blurry due to the lack of any formal release prior to FK

[Derakon]

Yeah, DSM has activated for breath attacks as far back as it's existed -- at least, the first version I ever played (which was a Mac port of frog-knows) had it. I'd be sad to see DSM breath weapons go away.

[EpicMan]

I also like the flavor of DSM adding a breath weapon attack. It's what makes it different from mithril or adamantite armors, without it DSM is the equivalent of mithril armors with a single resist.

[Storm-Sky]

Just wondering where dragon scale mail breath attack starts from, chest plate, Helm, had a funny idea about bending over and releasing a great big ball of gas at Morgoth.

[GeoffHill]

I believe dragon scale is generally considered to be a light armor in modern fantasy gaming. I googled 'dragon scale armor light' and got 4 million hits; 'dragon scale armor heavy' and only 400,000 hits. I think people envisage something like crocodile skin.

> and there's not much that typifies Angband more than DSM granting a breath attack

Hmmm? Don't agree with that. I can think of a whole bunch of things that are more evocative of the traditional Angband flavor, (like Holy Avenger or Defender weapons, or Broken Swords and Filthy Rags, or Ringil and the thancs).

WHat was the first version of V in which DSM could be activated for a breath weapon?

A.

I think Sean Marsh and I added the DSM breathes just before it was released to the world. 20 years ago now though so I can't remember exactly. I can certainly remember doing the artifact DSM with the star burst style breathe at the time.

By the way, Holy Avenger, Broken sword and filthy rags are evocative of U(Moria) to me, and were inherited into Angband. I'm with you on Ringil though!

[bio_hazard]

Ringil can't be true Angband flavor- I've never found it!

I'd just like to make a point that there are things that have been in Angband for a long time (Angels, etc), that are not necessarily good even if they have been a part of the game for a long time. IMO breathing from DSM seems like something that -could- be part of a Tolkien universe. It's over-powered if you find dsm at low level, otherwise it's a nice rechargable louse killer or something to kill a fleeing monster down to 1 star. I don't mind it, although as I mentioned above, other activations wouldn't be so bad either. Maybe not all DSM's would have an activation, but I like that they are more than just regular armor with a resist.