[Announce] Poschengband 3.3.0 Released

[chris]

It's super duper beta this time. This release adds the new Mimic player monster race, which serves as a complement to the Possessor. But while the Possessor relies on controlling corpses, the Mimic is able to imitate living foes in front of them. As usual, documentation is lacking and I also apologize for not keeping up with recent posts concerning last release.

Source code and a list of changes are also available.

[HugoVirtuoso]

Just when I posted another Possessor (Hugo$oul 1082) on the ladder, this SUPER, SUPER announcement came up!!

Me must download this NOW(!!!!) and upgrade Hugo$oul 1082 and play a Mimic for comparison's sake!

[debo]

Amazinggggggg

[HugoVirtuoso]

I'm about to give the Mimic a spin...

Found a minor bug already:
While all other monster races have documentation via '?', the Mimic has NONE! At the same time, the Mimic DOES gets an intro once you select it, though.

This interesting bug:
Assuming that Mimicked monsters have a timer, if you go on the Overworld Map, you can keep the Mimicked monsters for extended periods of time while traveling...or not a bug at higher levels? At clvl 12, I Mimicked a Swordsman (non-learned form) traveled from an area halfway between Outpost and Morivant all the way to Morivant without the Mimicry wearing off!!

That said, how does the Mimicry timer work at upper clvls for learned forms vs. non-learned forms? What do players need to do achieve 'Learned forms' with any monster? I think I got lucky with Meng You, Brother of Meng Huo relatively early.

[UglySquirrell]

The Mimic looks like a very cool class, i really like the @mimic equipment idea.
Would it be possible to have your inventory temporarily expanded when you change forms, for your extra gear? I seem to remember playing a variant that would allow you to pick up key/quest items, even when your inventory was full.

I guess it would be best if it didn't even appear in your inventory, but just disappeared until you shifted into a form that could use it. No idea if it's possible to pull off though, just a thought.

Hmm, now that i think about it, i'm guessing that the equipment slots remain even when using a seperate form, and the slots that a form cannot use are just hidden? If that's the case would it be possible to leave equipped items on even if that form cannot use them, but set the value of the unuseable gear slots to 0?

[HugoVirtuoso]

Chris offered some input on my character, DoppleHugo VI, about Learning forms and how long do they last:

To learn a form in 3 easy steps:
[1] Mimic a nearby visible monster.
[2] Kill that monster.
[3] Get a lucky die roll.

There is no counter for mimicry. If the form is learned, it lasts forever (or until somebody dispels magic). But if the form is unlearned then the source monster needs to be visible or you will quickly forget how to copy it.

[debo]

Hey Chris, I know you asked before about features that could be implemented in future PosCheng releases.

Have you ever thought much about improving the stealth system / borrowing some ideas from other variants? I'm having a lot of fun trawling really deep levels with a random character that just happened to find a lot of stealth equipment, but the stealth game feels really crude and it's basically "oh, is anything awake? Recall out because they're just going to chase me forever even though I'm a billion miles away." If nothing's awake, I can basically move around with impunity, even when detection gets my brain frazzled and terrified from beholding the visage of some awesome monster.

I might try a Ninja next to see how this all works when it's a primary mechanic for a class (rather than just something I do when I get bored and want to risk a -1100HP death.) Have you ever had any thoughts on tweaking stealth in PosCheng?

[UglySquirrell]

If you like Stealth, you should ml love the Ninja class, they are tons of fun. I recommend trying out either the Doppelganger, or Vamire races they both make really fun Ninja. Doppelganger don't regenerate hp well in another form and one of the ninjas best abilities stops regeneration. The Vampire Ninja is one of the most self sufficient combos iv'e played. You pretty much never have to go back to town, and with create darkness can survive in the daylight.

Hmm, i just remembered something, is there any chance that the Ninja enlightenment spell (can't remember the name Right now) could not light up the level?

[chris]

The Mimic looks like a very cool class, i really like the @mimic equipment idea.
Would it be possible to have your inventory temporarily expanded when you change forms, for your extra gear? I seem to remember playing a variant that would allow you to pick up key/quest items, even when your inventory was full.

Actually, next release (3.3.1) I think I have a better solution. The game tracks which item was previously worn when you shift bodies and eject some gear. Next time you shift, your pack is scanned and any object so marked gets equipped automatically. No need to inscribe. For the most part, this is working well.

As for inventory expansion, I'm a bit hampered by the current code base which uses a fixed size array with both pack and equipment adjacent combined with liberal hard coded assumptions of this fact sprinkled throughout the code base. I'd rather not tangle with that beast at the moment*. But if you think about it (and I'm probably rationalizing), the current system makes more sense. When you shift, you can no longer wield an object, and then where does it go? To your pack or even to the ground makes sense.

* BTW, I think other variants with body types implemented things differently. I know of at least one that simply increased the size of the global array and then set aside reserved regions for equipment of a certain type (e.g. 10 slots for each kind of gear). But this approach is very unflexible (jellies? quylthulgs? multiple arms?) so I'm glad I didn't do it that way.

[chris]

Assuming that Mimicked monsters have a timer, if you go on the Overworld Map, you can keep the Mimicked monsters for extended periods of time while traveling...or not a bug at higher levels? At clvl 12, I Mimicked a Swordsman (non-learned form) traveled from an area halfway between Outpost and Morivant all the way to Morivant without the Mimicry wearing off!!

Actually, I should probably make it so that you keep your form while in the special wilderness travel mode. After all, if you lose your form and your pack is full, there is no place for unwieldable objects to drop to, so you'll lose your stuff. Seems unfair. To compensate, there are no monsters to fight, nor can you cast spells or use powers.

[chris]

Have you ever thought much about improving the stealth system / borrowing some ideas from other variants? I'm having a lot of fun trawling really deep levels with a random character that just happened to find a lot of stealth equipment, but the stealth game feels really crude and it's basically "oh, is anything awake? Recall out because they're just going to chase me forever even though I'm a billion miles away." If nothing's awake, I can basically move around with impunity, even when detection gets my brain frazzled and terrified from beholding the visage of some awesome monster.

I might try a Ninja next to see how this all works when it's a primary mechanic for a class (rather than just something I do when I get bored and want to risk a -1100HP death.) Have you ever had any thoughts on tweaking stealth in PosCheng?

I'm open to these sorts of changes, but really, I'm probably the most inappropriate variant maintainer ever in that I just don't keep up with other variants. I played them all back in the day, but ever since Hengband, I haven't really played much else. So I'm woefully ignorant on all the cool stuff that other variants are currently doing.

That said, I can imagine adding some sort of monster awareness on top of the current sleeping mechanic. Monsters could wake up, but not yet realize there is an intrepid adventurer (aka 'lunch') sneaking about. The issue then is what do they do instead? Moving randomly would be lame and standing still is just like sleeping. There probably needs to be some sort of intelligent seeming action for unaware monsters to take (e.g. orc guards on patrol) which would require some clever code modification.

Ninjas offer an extra stealth dimension. Rather than awareness though, they hide in the shadows so that awake monsters know the player is lurking about someplace, just not where. In this case, the monster flails about randomly which is appropriate.

As for stealth = deep dungeon exploration, I think I need to be careful about making this tactic more powerful than it already is. Having wilderness access to deep dungeon levels can be rather unbalancing and must therefor be exceptionally risky. Having some monsters always awake keeps the danger threat high.

[chris]

Hmm, i just remembered something, is there any chance that the Ninja enlightenment spell (can't remember the name Right now) could not light up the level?

It currently should not be lighting the dungeon. It maps the squares, but you should continue to be able to hide in shadows. A potion of enlightenment, on the other hand, will indeed light up the rooms as well (and even the corridors).

Is this not what happens?

[debo]

As for stealth = deep dungeon exploration, I think I need to be careful about making this tactic more powerful than it already is. Having wilderness access to deep dungeon levels can be rather unbalancing and must therefor be exceptionally risky. Having some monsters always awake keeps the danger threat high.

I was actually thinking that it would be good if any new mechanics would make deep-dungeon diving less powerful.

In Sil, once your stealth is high enough, it really does feel like nothing can ever hear or see you. However, this is a false sense of security, because it's very possible to create local noise by tripping over traps, by failing a stealth check against an opponent's perception (which is easier to do when you're in LOS), or even just by physically bumping into something that was wandering around!

Right now in Poscheng, I feel like if something starts asleep and my stealth is legendary, it is basically a cute statue. I'm pretty sure there's not much at all that will wake it up, short of hitting it with something (which is why vortices are so dangerous).

However, let's say that fewer monsters started awake and hunting, and that _all monsters_ had a chance of waking up if you fail a stealth check... well, that seems much more dangerous, because I can detect monsters all I want on turn N, and I'll have no idea on turn N+1 if that thing just out of LOS is awake and ready to breathe 1600 on me

I don't think this is a high-priority thing, because the stealth game is quite fun still. It just feels very deterministic and surprisingly safe to me (i.e. oh, things are awake on the level -- leave. Oh, everything is asleep on the level -- time to have fun.)

[krazyhades]

Stealth-build characters get to strong stealth and stay there. A lot seems to depend on when one finds Jack's cloak, since it frequently worth wearing off of the ESP alone. It would be nice for early stealth to appear more often on heavier items beyond the use of rogues/ninjas so that some traditionally noisy characters can be stealthy relative to monsters at level-appropriate depth but not while diving. Casters definitely get some stealth capabilities, but melee characters don't seem to turn the corner on stealth usability until they're high enough level that they should be diving, at which point it's very strong. There's also, as in all *bands that I know of, the issue that speed*stealth=**STEALTH**

Ofc, take this with a grain of salt. I'm not the strongest of players here, but just my 2c.

EDIT:
How do Rune of Protection and Protection from Evil work in PosChengband? Even my Vanilla knowledge of these spells is very vague; I rarely use them. Pro. Evil in V prevents weaker-end evil monsters from attacking through the buff; is the same true in PosChengband? What about Rune/Glyph effect scrolls?

[UglySquirrell]

It currently should not be lighting the dungeon. It maps the squares, but you should continue to be able to hide in shadows. A potion of enlightenment, on the other hand, will indeed light up the rooms as well (and even the corridors).

Is this not what happens?

Hmm, my girl is not high enough level to check, maybe it's been updated. I might be remembering from Hengband. I'm almost positive the spell used to light up the level as well.

On another note, would it be possible to have the Stone of Lore remain the same in Randart games? This seems to be a one of a kind artifact with special abilities, that gives a pretty significant edge to playing with standarts on.