Help me find a variant, please (details inside)

[buzzkill]

Isn't FayAngband Halls of Mist now? It has interesting light and terrain management.

Yep, but I assume Fay 1.1 or 1.2 is still available. I tried playing Mist for a while, it had potential, but I don't think it was ever really finished. Fay is what I'd call a finished/stable variant, though no longer maintained. I suspect the name change had at least a liitle to do with preserving Fay as it's own entity.

[DanielKennethRego]

Well, the fun is over ... ^^

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15490

*Sniff*, this was the best one in FAangband so far ...

This is exactly why I asked for relevant spoilers. I don't think situations like these are fair, where you are encountering a monster for the first time and it has the power to instakill you without you knowing what to expect. I remember Angband Vanilla had these aplenty back in the day (I even savescummed some characters out of sheer frustration), but Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, for example, almost never has situations like these, at least in my experience. I like that.

Do any of the major Angband variants take measures against this, by the way? NPP or FA?

[Scatha]

But I really, really miss magic. I almost wish someone made a fork of Sil that introduced magic (responsibly, so as to not take away from the tactical and positional emphasis of the game - make range and terrain hazards significant in magic use, for example). It could really be the best roguelike I can imagine, then.

A few people have made similar comments about missing magic. It has made me wonder about how you'd fit a good balanced magic system into the game. It's an interesting problem, and I have a system half-designed. I'm not going to release a variant, but I might write up a design doc explaining the rules I'd use in case anyone else wants to make use of it.

[Derakon]

There are cheat options in Angband (and, I believe, in all modern variants), one of which is to know the full monster memory. Personally I don't have a problem with people who use that option. Then when you see a new monster, your monster memory should include a complete listing of everything it can do to you. In Vanilla it'll also tell you the max damage each spell attack can do; dunno if that's the case in FA or NPP, but at least for breath attacks you can calculate it by dividing the monster's health by 3 (or, IIRC, 6 for the high elements excepting poison).

[DanielKennethRego]

Scatha, I'd *LOVE* it if magic somehow made its way into Sil, or at least someone took up the task and made a variant. With no offence to your work with Sil (which actually is the most impressive new roguelike I've played in years), if Sil were to have a proper skill-based magic system and more diversity and variety in the monsters, items and dungeon layout/terrain/design, it'd skyrocket to being the best roguelike today, in my opinion.

I know both offensive magic and expanding the monsters and items lists beyond the original appearances in true Tolkein is contrary to your goals with the flavour of Sil, though. So maybe someone could make a variant. That would really be amazing.

I love the whole abilities system in Sil, and how well implemented it is - that you can only trigger them by proper tactical thought and positioning. For instance, ToME also has a 'rush' ability like Sil does. Except in ToME, you can rush in from anywhere, any direction (as long as you are within a fairly large range limit), by activating the talent. It sounds cool at first, like a targetted blink with a free attack, but there's almost no tactical depth to it after you've done it 20 times. Now in Sil, to get that rush in effect (Charge), you need to move and position yourself accordingly. That makes the ability much more tactically relevant, and makes combat in general so much more involving. Great work, you and 'half'!

[Mondkalb]

This is exactly why I asked for relevant spoilers. I don't think situations like these are fair, where you are encountering a monster for the first time and it has the power to instakill you without you knowing what to expect. I remember Angband Vanilla had these aplenty back in the day (I even savescummed some characters out of sheer frustration), but Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, for example, almost never has situations like these, at least in my experience. I like that.

Do any of the major Angband variants take measures against this, by the way? NPP or FA?

FA has a touch of cruelty in some ways. Even potions of detonation and death are still around. You can also find some pretty nasty cursed armor and curses on jewelry are quite common.

[DanielKennethRego]

One more question, I thought Skills Angband/SAngband looked pretty cool, did any currently developing variant use those ideas?

I tried NPPAngband and FAAngband, by the way. Both very cool and fun, but after playing Crawl for the past several months, I'm finding it hard to adjust to the slow early game in Angband-style games.

[fizzix]

One more question, I thought Skills Angband/SAngband looked pretty cool, did any currently developing variant use those ideas?

I tried NPPAngband and FAAngband, by the way. Both very cool and fun, but after playing Crawl for the past several months, I'm finding it hard to adjust to the slow early game in Angband-style games.

You can play FAAngband as one of the elves where you start as level 5 and have a dangerous environment off the bat.

However, the general design philosophy of Angband itself is that the first few levels are tame so that new players can get their feet wet. But there's no need to explore them if you've played a bit. Angband is very different from crawl in that clearing levels, while possible if you enjoy it, is not at all necessary.

[DanielKennethRego]

Okay, I've decided to fully immerse myself in either FAAngband or NPPAngband. I'm a bit confused about the differences between them though, apart from the obvious that FAAngband is thematically based in the First Age and rids itself of items and monsters not relevant to the first age, and the fact that it has a wilderness that NPP does not.

Can anyone briefly run down the significant differences between NPP and FA so I can pick?

[debo]

In my experience, NPP is a sort of different take on Vanilla, whereas FAangband is more of a completely different game. Based on what you've said so far, I think FA is closer to what you're looking for. I'd try both, though

[Nick]

• FA has (optional) wilderness and a moderate variety of terrain; NPP has dungeon only but a greater variety of terrain.
• FA has a few fixed quests; NPP has many optional variable quests.
• NPP has similar races and classes to Angband; FA has different races and more classes.
• NPP has Angband style resistances; FA has percentage resistances.
• Objects are quite different between the two as well - in particular FA has very randomised rings and amulets.

I'm sure there are other differences too.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I play both, but FA much more often.

I choose Npp if I need a lot of mini-goals to help me pace through a 100 level dungeon by using its quest system. Npp has small levels (option), which is nice if you like to clear levels. Npp is probably best with randarts, of which I've found some really nice ones. If you want to fire up a variant and not have to worry too much about learning anything new, then Npp isn't going to throw many curves. Probably trickiest is the new terrain... I nearly got killed by an attack while I was standing in sand, for instance.

I choose FA if I want O-style combat, where the tl;dr is, damage dice are king, usually, instead of light weapon with lots of attacks, like in V. FA if I want grander scale, and a nice, or, unpleasant, walk through the wilderness. The different specialties are nice for character development, but nothing near the scale of Tome 2.xx you mention, which was my first major variant to play. I think FA is more engaging and rewarding, but Npp is certainly good too. I think of Npp as vanilla + awesome. I tend to only play warriors, so after playing with glorious O-style combat, it's kind of hard to play Vanilla combat system.

[taptap]

@ Sil, but with magic.

I just want to note for the record, Sil has magic, subtle yet powerful. You really should play a singer to experience it. Holding a Balrog paralysed and powerless with your voice alone (especially if you field no fighting capabilities to talk of), that is true magic and at least for me way cooler than "magical artillery" that boils down to damage per turn.

[DanielKennethRego]

Also, where do the new Angband releases (3.5 and v4) fall in this scheme?

[DanielKennethRego]

I play both, but FA much more often.

I choose Npp if I need a lot of mini-goals to help me pace through a 100 level dungeon by using its quest system. Npp has small levels (option), which is nice if you like to clear levels. Npp is probably best with randarts, of which I've found some really nice ones. If you want to fire up a variant and not have to worry too much about learning anything new, then Npp isn't going to throw many curves. Probably trickiest is the new terrain... I nearly got killed by an attack while I was standing in sand, for instance.

I choose FA if I want O-style combat, where the tl;dr is, damage dice are king, usually, instead of light weapon with lots of attacks, like in V. FA if I want grander scale, and a nice, or, unpleasant, walk through the wilderness. The different specialties are nice for character development, but nothing near the scale of Tome 2.xx you mention, which was my first major variant to play. I think FA is more engaging and rewarding, but Npp is certainly good too. I think of Npp as vanilla + awesome. I tend to only play warriors, so after playing with glorious O-style combat, it's kind of hard to play Vanilla combat system.

I had no knowledge of this O-style combat you speak of. Can you elaborate? Also, does NPP definitely not have this? I'm quite intrigued.