[PosChengband] Going forward (or wrapping up)

[chris]

I'm always looking forward to calling it quits one of these days. But there are still a few things that bother me slightly. One of these is the inordinate number of racial choices combined with the newly added duplication between some normal races and their monster race counterparts (Archons vs. Angels, Balrogs vs Demons, Golems vs Golems, etc).

So I thought I would streamline the normal racial choices and force players to choose the monster version where appropriate. And don't worry, there are going to be some more new monster races coming (Vampires are up next, followed by Zombies I think. I'd also like to do something with Ents, Orcs, Kobolds and Centipedes!).

So here is a paired down list of normal racial choices. Please yell and scream if I've removed your favorite choice. Or pipe up if you think more could be removed.

Table 1 - Race Statistic Bonus Table                          
                                                              
               STR  INT  WIS  DEX  CON  CHR  Life  BHP  Exp   
Human           +0   +0   +0   +0   +0   +0  100%  +20  100%  
Tonberry        +4   +0   -2   -4   +5   +0  108%  +26  175%  
Demigod         +1   +1   +1   +1   +1   +1  100%  +20  180%  
Hobbit          -2   +1   +1   +3   +2   +1   92%  +14  120%  
Gnome           -1   +2   -1   +2   +1   -1   95%  +16  115%  
Dwarf           +2   -2   +2   -2   +2   +1  103%  +22  135%  
Half-Troll      +4   -4   -1   -3   +3   -2  107%  +25  150%  
Amberite        +1   +2   +2   +2   +3   +0  100%  +20  190%  
High-Elf        +1   +3   -1   +3   +1   +1   99%  +19  190%  
Barbarian       +3   -2   -1   +1   +2   +2  103%  +22  135%  
Half-Ogre       +3   -2   +0   -1   +3   +1  106%  +23  140%  
Half-Giant      +4   -2   -2   -2   +3   +0  108%  +26  150%  
Half-Titan      +5   +1   +2   -2   +3   +3  112%  +28  255%  
Yeek            -2   +1   -2   +1   -2   -4   92%  +14   70%  
Klackon         +2   -1   -1   +1   +2   +1  105%  +23  170%  
Nibelung        +1   -1   +2   +0   +2   -2  103%  +22  165%  
Dark-Elf        -1   +3   +2   +2   -2   +3   97%  +18  155%  
Draconian       +2   +1   +1   +1   +2   +2  103%  +22  195%  
Mindflayer      -3   +4   +4   +0   -2   -1   97%  +18  150%  
Sprite          -4   +3   +3   +3   -2   -2   92%  +14  135%  
Beastman        +2   -2   -1   -1   +2   +1  102%  +22  150%  
Dunadan         +1   +2   +2   +2   +3   +0  100%  +20  160%  
Shadow-Fairy    -2   +2   +2   +1   -1   -3   91%  +13  140%  
Kutar           +0   -1   -1   +1   +2   +0  102%  +21  175%  
Android         +3   -1   -5   +1   +3   +0  108%  +26  200%  
Doppelganger    -3   -3   -3   -3   -3   -3   85%  +12  150%  
Centaur         +3   -2   +1   +2   +1   +0  103%  +22  190%

I've deprecated the following:
Snotling
Cyclops
Kobold
Imp
Golem
Skeleton
Zombie
Vampire
Spectre
Ent
Archon
Balrog.

[clouded]

On the one hand the million races is part of the appeal of poscheng, but on the other there is certainly some redundancy going on so trimming a little can't hurt. On the races you have left:

Half-Troll/Half-Giant/Half-Ogre are all very similar and seem to differ mainly in their single special ability and resistance, thematically I would actually prefer Cyclops over these races, this variant does have a fair amount of Greek things after all.

Amberite/Dunadan are identical in stats and skills, Amberites would obviously be the one to keep, since they have some abilities and Dunadan don't.

Sprite/Shadow-Fairy are similar and could be combined into a single fairy race, maybe light/dark as subraces but that doesn't seem hugely important.

For the depreciated races:

I like both Kobold and Imp, it's nice to have some decent quick leveling races. The plan you mentioned on my recent dump sounded good to me.

For the undead races I've only played spectre, but both spectre and vampire have very game changing gimmicks. I think there's also room for a plain melee focused nonliving race, if golems went too only Androids would fill that and they aren't quite plain.

To be truthful I'm not too fond of the idea of dropping the normal races of angel/demon/golem in favour of the monster ones. It is weird how there are two races for a few things but the monster races aren't going to differ too much over seperate games and these three have fairly well defined niches that can work for a lot of classes. Archons are maybe the weakest niche ("good priestly race") but Balrogs certainly have a strong one (very strong/tough race with one of the best device skills), Golems could maybe be filled by something else (high natural AC/nonliving). The monster races all have huge xp penalties too - 350% for both Angels and Balrogs, which is hard to stomach for me.

Perhaps those niches could just be shifted to elsewhere though. Dunadan could have their stats shifted to a much more wisdom heavy slant, a mundane device skill but high stealth. Dwarves get Balrogs excellent device skill, sharing the poor stealth and toughness Balrogs had. Then one of Zombie/Skeleton could remain as the nonliving, high AC melee race. Not sure what your plans would be for a zombie monster race but if skeletons remained as the normal race, maybe they would lose the weird potion thing (to be honest I only vaguely know about that, I haven't actually played one).

[chris]

Dunno if this is useful, but here is some racial data from the Japanese World Score server. I must say, Humans get next to zero play over here, but are wildly popular in Japan for some reason?

High-Elf 7967
Human 5370
Spectre 4553
Draconian 3814
Archon 3779
Android 3512
Hobbit 3299
Vampire 2746
Klackon 2147
Balrog 2018
Beastman 2008
Kutar 1816
Golem 1814
Nibelung 1676
Dunadan 1624
Shadow-Fairy 1465
Sprite 1414
Half-Titan 1409
Amberite 1402
Zombie 1395
Mindflayer 1303
Dark-Elf 1248
Dwarf 1206
Imp 1111
Elf 1060
Skeleton 894
Half-Elf 883
Barbarian 848
Gnome 714
Ent 538
Yeek 533
Kobold 381
Half-Ogre 346
Half-Giant 305
Half-Orc 295
Cyclops 288
Half-Troll 260

[AnonymousHero]

Given that monsters don't get to choose a class, I think it would be a shame to remove the "old" monster-type races.

Not that I'm actually playing the game or anything, but I've always been fond of the Golem race for its immunity to stun.

[ekolis]

What if you (dun dun dun) *let monster PC's choose a class*?

Shocking, I know Just a wild idea!

[chris]

What if you (dun dun dun) *let monster PC's choose a class*?

Shocking, I know Just a wild idea!

I certainly thought about that. However, it is a huge design difference. For normal race/class choices, the racial component has a rather weak influence on player power, mainly affecting stats (which can be overcome with gear) and skills. The class choice has a far greater impact on the player's experience than the racial choice.

For the monster races, this dynamic is completely reversed. In fact, the "Monster" class has absolutely no effect on gameplay! Rather, it is the racial choice alone that completely determines the experience, and the races can therefor be designed much more aggressively. Of course, you lose the combinatorial factor with this approach. But you end up with a better design, IMO.

EDIT: And this is exactly the situation I was railing against: Scores of racial choices that are scarcely distinguishable from one another. I see very small utility in going from 40+ similarly designed races to 70+ ...

[chris]

BTW, I decided to just leave all the normal races as is.

So I won't do kobold or orc monster races since they really wouldn't add much. But I will do Vampire (in progress), Ghost (Scary), and Zombie (Think Dawn of the Dead). After that, I'm out of ideas

Zombies should be eating brains, btw!

[Derakon]

EDIT: And this is exactly the situation I was railing against: Scores of racial choices that are scarcely distinguishable from one another. I see very small utility in going from 40+ similarly designed races to 70+ ...

It sounds then like what needs to happen is that the non-monster "monster" races that actually provide extra variety ought to be renamed to something non-monstrous.

Of course, you're also facing the problem that no matter what change you make, somebody won't like it.

[HugoVirtuoso]

Zombies should be eating brains, btw!

Zombies should be required to 'E'at live monsters in order to sustain itself.

[ekolis]

Zombies should be required to 'E'at live monsters in order to sustain itself.

As should vampires, but vampires' eating of live monsters should only weaken them a bit, not outright kill them. Though to balance it out, the zombie version should have a higher fail rate... we're talking about removing a creature's brain versus just draining a bit of blood!

[Avenger]

As should vampires, but vampires' eating of live monsters should only weaken them a bit, not outright kill them. Though to balance it out, the zombie version should have a higher fail rate... we're talking about removing a creature's brain versus just draining a bit of blood!

Concerning odd sustainment methods, I'd like a little more variety for Balrogs. Maybe not just human, but humanoid(orcs, kobolds, giants, etc) corpses could be used as sacrifices.

I also wanted to post in favor of monster classes, but you've already replied to that, so what about giving some monster races access to some forms of book magic, in addition to their inherent abilities?

On that note, would it be possible to integrate something like ZAngband has, to recognize equivalent spells across different realms of book magic?

[chem]

I always enjoyed playing golem or spectre races.