Unangband - some testing results

[Anne]

This is a new one. Is it with the 'clean' character? The '=2' easy_more and auto_more options may be the culprits... Is it reproducible? You can generate unidentified objects with 'Control-a' (confirmations, etc.) then 'c', say 't' 'J'. Does it happen with many such generated objects?

I noticed it happening with my regular character, the one with extra options out the wazoo (and I believe both of those options are enabled on that one). I haven't tried it much with my clean character yet - I've mainly just looked over items in shops and barely even plunged into the first dungeon yet. Obviously using my regular character just muddies the waters in this regard. Just disregard this one for the moment. Once I've found out whether it does happen on my clean character, or what option is definitely causing it, I'll report back on it.

From here on out, I plan to concentrate almost exclusively on my 'clean' character since I get clearer results for you from it. The only exception will be to try to identify what option has been causing a problem on my option-packed regular character (like that crashing problem I mentioned earlier). But I'll make sure to specify in that case.

Now that we have the other thread for text issues, I'll only post bugginess type things here. The "gives you mana" thing is reported over on that other thread now since it deals with text.

Little by little, I'm gaining some understanding on what extra information is helpful to you in these situations. I've decided that it might be helpful to keep copies of my test character save files. In a situation like the magical bag bug, it might have been helpful if I'd been able to test it further, but my character dying ended the testing prematurely. Since it's characters meant for testing purposes and not for posting on the ladder, what the heck, why not. I'm assuming that restoring from a copied save file won't interfere with getting clean results, but if you think that's a bad idea for some reason, let me know and I'll ditch the idea.

[Karzack]

What about a separate help file that can be accessed with "?" like others. In this file would be glossary that defines all of these bonuses. Like haste, bless, etc., or add what ever else you think would be necessary. This would allow more detail if needed.

Just a thought.

[Bandobras]

When selling an unknown item in shop, sometimes there is no message acknowledging sale and telling what the item identified as. Pulling up previous messages does show it. It doesn't seem to be restricted to whether the shopkeeper considers them to be 'junk'.

This is a new one. Is it with the 'clean' character? The '=2' easy_more and auto_more options may be the culprits... Is it reproducible? You can generate unidentified objects with 'Control-a' (confirmations, etc.) then 'c', say 't' 'J'. Does it happen with many such generated objects?

Suggestion - Descriptions such as "hastes you" and "blesses you" and "gives you feather falling" won't mean anything to people who haven't played this type of game before.

OK, changed "hastes" to "makes you faster", no idea how to help with "blesses you" because it has many effects, changed to "gives you feather falling" to "It causes its wielder to" followed by:

{ TR3_SLOW_DIGEST,	"digest food more efficiently" },
{ TR3_FEATHER,		"fall like a feather" },
{ TR3_TELEPATHY,	"detect monsters by telepathy" },
{ TR3_SEE_INVIS,	"see invisible monters" }

Also - "gives you mana" is a bit vague

I can't find it. How does it sound exactly?

I can collect a list of items with descriptions like that as I see them.

You see it helps immensely.

Which leads me to a suggestion. On the 'Display current options' menu, it would be handy to have an option there to set ALL of them back to defaults. There's always a certain amount of new players who tend to get their fingers into things before they know what they're doing. If they've badly screwed things up, that would save having to reinstall their game in order to straighten it out.

Filed a feature request.

OK, I guess I'm done here finally.

[Bandobras]

It was positive numbers across the board. That's why it looked odd to me. Sorry, I didn't write down the specific numbers, though.

Next time you see this, please take note of the last number, like -1 below:

a Small Leather Shield of Searching [2,+7] (-1)

For some reason that last number does not show in shops. Also, I can't come across an item with positive number these days, but it's already reported in the bug report on berlios, so in time it will be debugged.

So far the only objects I've spotted like that were Wonder and Wonder II. I think stating something like "random effects" or "various effects" would be fine.

Done.

I can fuel an empty lantern without removing it from my light source slot, but it won't give off light until I remove it and then 'wear' it again. Still need to check that to see if it happens with the torch as well. It just seems odd to me.

When your light source has done off or was doused off by you, you have light it up with '|'. Yes, it needs an in-game note as well as a metion in manual. Hmm, however I can safely add a trigger that will light up a light automatically when fueled. Done.

Room descriptions do not wrap to screen on previous messages - they're always cut off after the first line runs over the edge.

The previous messages will wrap in the future, the bug is already reported. For now, scroll them with arrows.

Magical Bag of Supplies - Tested this with my 'clean' character: I started out with 3 wooden torches in a 'magical bag of supplies'. Purchased 5 more, and then 2 more, which should make a total of 10 torches in my bag. When I checked, there were 7 in my bag (none in my inventory, none wielded) instead of 10. [...]

Thank you. This is a crucial piece of evidence for a very elusive known bug.

[Anne]

It depends. Some are cursed or broken and they decrease. What was the number in parenthesis at the end of item name? Negative or positive?

It was positive numbers across the board. That's why it looked odd to me. Sorry, I didn't write down the specific numbers, though.

I guess the assumption is object descriptions fit on one standard 80x25 screen. I wonder how to fix this. Perhaps describe wonder as "has various efffects" instead of listing all? Does it happen for any other items?

So far the only objects I've spotted like that were Wonder and Wonder II. I think stating something like "random effects" or "various effects" would be fine. I didn't look at the descriptions closely enough to see the differences between Wonder I and II, but the descriptions should probably reflect that difference in some way if possible. Maybe Wonder I has low to medium level effects and II has medium to high. Or maybe it's spell types. Or if there are no categories that neatly fit, well, these random ones are risky to use anyway, so let them find out through use.

Some other things I've noticed:

I can fuel an empty lantern without removing it from my light source slot, but it won't give off light until I remove it and then 'wear' it again. Still need to check that to see if it happens with the torch as well. It just seems odd to me.

Room descriptions do not wrap to screen on previous messages - they're always cut off after the first line runs over the edge.

Magical Bag of Supplies - Tested this with my 'clean' character: I started out with 3 wooden torches in a 'magical bag of supplies'. Purchased 5 more, and then 2 more, which should make a total of 10 torches in my bag. When I checked, there were 7 in my bag (none in my inventory, none wielded) instead of 10. I then purchased 3 more torches, which should have brought it up to 10 again. Checked my bag, and there were now -252- wooden torches in there. The shopkeeper of course didn't even have that many in stock. The cash seemed to be subtracted correctly - I certainly didn't have enough cash starting out to pay for that many torches. I also checked previous messages, but no clues there. It just verified each step I described above. Later, I picked up iron spikes, and when I examined the bag, the torches were gone (I hadn't used or sold any of them) but the spikes were there. And of course, my poor character died shortly after that, so I can't test it any further.

[Bandobras]

Hand Crossbows of Spell Resistance - description in shop says "It decreases your spell resistance by 9." Should that be -increases- instead?

It depends. Some are cursed or broken and they decrease. What was the number in parenthesis at the end of item name? Negative or positive?

However, after testing I see the item is described in such case as "useful ego item", which is a contradiction. I think the bug is that broken items are not always marked as broken interally. Will add this info to the but report #12394...

(Note that I'm assuming that shopkeepers wouldn't be selling that sort of bad item since they throw out anything they buy from a character that's bad - this may be an erroneous assumption on my part.)

Well, they may sell a very sharp, deadly weapon that decreases some strange magic ability, or a broken weapon that increases it. I think shops sell everything that has a positive power or value, summing all pluses according to their weight.

Potion of Slow Poison - description gives throwing information but doesn't tell quaffing info.

Well spotted. I see the potion does not do anything. There is even no corresponding spell effect in spells.txt. I think there is enough low-level potions in Un, so I'll just remove Slow Poison.

Rod of Cure Moderate Wounds - description gives only throwing info, not using info.

Well spotted again. Corrected.

Some descriptions are not wrapping to the window properly, and maximizing screen has no effect. Wand of Wonder and Wonder II (huge descriptions due to all the possible effects) wraps all lines except where it hits the bottom of the window, which is lost. Maximizing screen has no effect and of course it doesn't appear in previous messages screen, so we can't see the rest of it that way. I tried hitting space as if to indicate 'more' (even though there was no prompt to do so) and that only closes out of the message.

I guess the assumption is object descriptions fit on one standard 80x25 screen. I wonder how to fix this. Perhaps describe wonder as "has various efffects" instead of listing all? Does it happen for any other items?

More comments later...

[Anne]

Good idea, fortunately Andrew has already hacked a smart system that does that. I think e.g. a note about bags you see the first time you walk over a bag or pick it up, or see it in the shop. Perhaps what you write indicates the system needs some tuning. E.g. if you start the game with a potion, the relevant note will appear quite early, before you see your first potion on the floor. Is this misleading? Is triggering by shop inventory misleading?

No, that's not misleading at all. In fact, that's very appropriate. I did see certain notes more than once on my regular character, but I'd be hard pressed at the moment to say which ones - the Potions and Mushrooms notes, I think. But if those are coded to have more than one trigger (i.e. moving toward a shop selling potion/mushroom, and when finding one for the first time) then that would explain it. When I start the next character, I'll pay more attention to exactly where and when each note appears so I can spot any problem areas.

As Daven and I say, what we really need is beginners. Really, docs are for beginners. Even people moving from other variants just take a peek at a page or two, unlike true beginners.

At the very least, I can always act as a guinea pig by sharing things that I find confusing, etc.

Great. Reproducible crashes are worth 100gp each.

I'd better get cracking, then. I could use some more arrows. j/k.

[Bandobras]

Speaking of which... one way to eradicate redundancy would be to code the notes to appear when the subject is encountered for the first time. Obviously that would only apply to items (like the notes on mushrooms, potions).

Good idea, fortunately Andrew has already hacked a smart system that does that. I think e.g. a note about bags you see the first time you walk over a bag or pick it up, or see it in the shop. Perhaps what you write indicates the system needs some tuning. E.g. if you start the game with a potion, the relevant note will appear quite early, before you see your first potion on the floor. Is this misleading? Is triggering by shop inventory misleading?

And Daven, it's wonderful of you to offer to help with the documentation. I hope that works out. I'd love to lend a hand myself, but being such a beginner at this really hampers me there.

As Daven and I say, what we really need is beginners. Really, docs are for beginners. Even people moving from other variants just take a peek at a page or two, unlike true beginners. Then, beginners is what Angband community needs any time, because a game played only by a bunch of maintainers and old-timers is somewhat pathetic.

I noticed that some basic options such as my roguelike keyset and birth_beginner were transfered to the new character. So my question to you is whether there are any options that would transfer automatically that would interfere in it remaining 'clean'.

Only those two. They were asked the first time you started the game and stored in Startup.prf to affect all characters unless you overwrite them manually (via '=' or by editing Startup.prf).

For that matter, I've noticed something making my regular character crash but not with my test character, so I may end up wanting to make another character trying out different options just to find out what exactly is causing it.

Great. Reproducible crashes are worth 100gp each.

[experiments with graphics]

Thanks a lot, I've updated the bug report. When others playing with tiles will share their experiences we'll know more. For now, your report is recorded.

More in the next post...

[Anne]

Bandobras - I'm glad you mentioned that posting things here rather than file a bug report was fine too. I've done some experimenting based on your suggestions, but that section of the site looks so professional that it's a little intimidating. I'm not only new to Un, I'm also still new to Angband games of any kind, so it's altogether possible that my inexperience might cause me to report something that doesn't seem right to me, but is actually working the way it's supposed to. So it might be for the best if I post them here on the forum and then let you file whatever actually needs a bug report.

Okay, guys. First, a question. For testing purposes, I've made a second character so that I can compare it with some of the things I'm seeing with my regular character. The idea is that I'd like to keep my test character 'clean' with default options while my regular character has ones I prefer. I noticed that some basic options such as my roguelike keyset and birth_beginner were transfered to the new character. So my question to you is whether there are any options that would transfer automatically that would interfere in it remaining 'clean'. For that matter, I've noticed something making my regular character crash but not with my test character, so I may end up wanting to make another character trying out different options just to find out what exactly is causing it.

Info - I'm using the new beta for Windows, with a fresh install after nuking the entire old folder. (Windows XP laptop, roguelike keyset - if you need more info, just say so.)

* The graphic weirdness where text is superimposed on individual tiles hasn't happened even once since I last reported it. It did happen a couple of times when I first installed the new beta, but heaven only knows whether it was something screwy on my own machine causing it. Anyway, seems to have cleared up completely.

* Little problem with some tilesets when 'nice graphics' is enabled. I experimented with all possible combinations of 'nice graphics', 'double-tile', and 'big-tile' for all tilesets.

In Gervais, when 'nice graphics' is enabled, that also automatically enables both 'double-tile' and 'big-tile' mode. If you disable either (or both) of the latter but leave 'nice graphics' enabled, it stays that way right through exiting the game. But upon reloading the game next time, both 'double-tile' and 'big-tile' modes are enabled once again.

Ascii - no problems with 'nice graphics' enabled.

Old Tiles - no problems with 'nice graphics' enabled.

Adam Bolt - same thing as Gervais, but it only additionally enables 'big-tile' mode.

Using Gervais iso-tiles with 'nice graphics' enabled caused some -really- strange visuals. But then, it -is- experimental.

The graphic weirdness where black bars are stretched over portions of the grid only happens now upon loading the game, and only sometimes. Redraw screen clears it right up and it doesn't come back until the next time I load the game. Note that I've only experienced this so far with Gervais tileset, 'nice graphics', 'big-tile' mode. I haven't experienced it in other tilesets or ascii (with or without 'nice graphics') at all yet, but then again, I haven't used them so far other than for the little bit of testing I've done. I'll experiment a bit more and let you know if I find out anything else about this. Again, this could always be caused by wonkiness on my own machine.

Very minor 'center_player' issue if used with Gervais and 'nice graphics' are enabled. If the game is exited when the character is close to the edge of the town, when it's loaded up again, (first having to disable 'double-tile' as described above), the game attempts to center the character, filling in all the surrounding off-the-edge area with wall tiles. Move the character one grid in any direction and the screen appears normally again. Does -not- happen unless 'nice graphics' is enabled.

* Item Description problems:

Hand Crossbows of Spell Resistance - description in shop says "It decreases your spell resistance by 9." Should that be -increases- instead?

Pike of Device Mastery - description in shop says "It decreases your magical devices by 3." Should that be -increases- instead?

(Note that I'm assuming that shopkeepers wouldn't be selling that sort of bad item since they throw out anything they buy from a character that's bad - this may be an erroneous assumption on my part.)

Potion of Slow Poison - description gives throwing information but doesn't tell quaffing info.

Rod of Cure Moderate Wounds - description gives only throwing info, not using info.

Some descriptions are not wrapping to the window properly, and maximizing screen has no effect. Wand of Wonder and Wonder II (huge descriptions due to all the possible effects) wraps all lines except where it hits the bottom of the window, which is lost. Maximizing screen has no effect and of course it doesn't appear in previous messages screen, so we can't see the rest of it that way. I tried hitting space as if to indicate 'more' (even though there was no prompt to do so) and that only closes out of the message.

When selling an unknown item in shop, sometimes there is no message acknowledging sale and telling what the item identified as. Pulling up previous messages does show it. It doesn't seem to be restricted to whether the shopkeeper considers them to be 'junk'.

Suggestion - Descriptions such as "hastes you" and "blesses you" and "gives you feather falling" won't mean anything to people who haven't played this type of game before. Need to spell it out for them. Also - "gives you mana" is a bit vague - it could mean it increases your max mana, or that it replenishes it up to the maximum. If it would be of help, I can collect a list of items with descriptions like that as I see them.

I've found other little weirdnesses, but I'll wait to hear back about my question first - I'd rather check them with a clean character to get more info first.

You'll be really welcome, but in case of troubles, here is a good place for bug reports, too. Corrections to documentation are especially valuable (docs usually lag behind the game, just as the tiles) and especially from fresh players. Your documentation complains from the previous post seem great ideas, so if they were presented as English sentences ready to insert into the docs, some of them would land there at once...

Well terrific. I'll start making a list as I come across them to send you. Obviously some things are beyond me as a beginner, but at least some of them are easy.

And you were right about easy_search - I must have enabled that by mistake while I was messing with options. Duh me.

Which leads me to a suggestion. On the 'Display current options' menu, it would be handy to have an option there to set ALL of them back to defaults. There's always a certain amount of new players who tend to get their fingers into things before they know what they're doing. If they've badly screwed things up, that would save having to reinstall their game in order to straighten it out.