Unangband - some testing results

[Bandobras]

Scroll of Phase Door - "When read, it teleports you away."

You know what? It displays so only in the object knowledge screen "~4". In other places it says "for 10 distance on average", which is exactly what you've proposed. I will fix the knowledge display; if there is any other place with the shorter display, please let me know.

Edit: Now I see you get the numerical details only if you've used the object enough number of times (not in the knowledge screen, though, which will be fixed). This should be documented...

Edit2: Oops, the timeout depends on an uninitialized variable "num", which is why the knowledge screen was terse for me, and may be why you never got the full description anywere. Fixed.

[Anne]

After you turned my attention to options, this, and several other options will be changed to their V versions (probably reducing the number of separate versions, too), including the difference in behaviour. Wait for beta2 in a week or two and please verify that your problems are gone (updated the relevant feature request, anyway).

Sounds good! I'll put off testing options further until I've downloaded the next beta, then. Here's hoping I can come across another Magical Bag of Supplies so I can do more complete testing on it. That one interests me. lol.

[Bandobras]

More on using Gauge Magic on an unidentified wand: If you use Gauge Magic on a scroll and then sell it in a shop, sometimes it sells for an unbelievable price. I sold an unidentified wand with 13 charges for (drum roll please) 30,000 gp! And it turned out to be only a wand of Spark. Poor, poor shopkeeper, I'm sure he hates me now. The next unidentified wand with 9 charges went for 100 gp (turned out to be Light).

Thanks for more info on this bug. Seems more serious than I thought.

Wonder spell - just thought I'd mention that the description in the spellbook, while it does list the variety of possible effects, is just fine. It doesn't run out of room like the wands did.

Thanks, but too late, already shortened.

About the Phase Door and Teleportation we discussed earlier - I found out today that the spell (rather than the scroll) descriptions include average distance to differentiate them. I don't know if the coding on the spellbook descriptions would be helpful in coming up with a solution for the scrolls, but I thought I'd mention it.

Now that you mention it, I wonder if that shows up in the scroll description if you *Identify* it (debug hack: Control-a (yes) f). Can't test it in the moment. If not, perhaps the spells are meant to be described in more detail (mages know the mechanics more). Anyway, you are right it can be easily fixed just by giving the numerical value.

Service of Gauge Magic - I purchased this service, choosing an unidentified piece of armor that I was wearing at the time. The final message I saw was "Taken!" which made me immediately check my equipment to make sure the shopkeeper hadn't taken it. [...]

Funny story. I guess the shopkeeper meant the money is taken. Anyway, let's scare newbies from time to time.

Regarding combinations of:
carry_query_flag
floor_query_flag
Apparently the latter only works if the former is also enabled - without that, it still picks up the entire stack without letting the player choose. I don't know if that's the way it's meant to work, but I'm assuming it probably is, because from a coding standpoint, it really would make sense. So, assuming it is not a bug...

After you turned my attention to options, this, and several other options will be changed to their V versions (probably reducing the number of separate options, too), including the difference in behaviour. Wait for beta2 in a week or two and please verify that your problems are gone (updated the relevant feature request, anyway).

Edit: versions -> options

[Anne]

This feature is present in Un. If it does not work for you, please report.

Oh yay! Zang was the only place I've seen that so far, and since it wasn't mentioned on our scroll, I just assumed we didn't have it. Truth is, I haven't been able to afford those scrolls yet, at least not until tonight...


More on using Gauge Magic on an unidentified wand: If you use Gauge Magic on a scroll and then sell it in a shop, sometimes it sells for an unbelievable price. I sold an unidentified wand with 13 charges for (drum roll please) 30,000 gp! And it turned out to be only a wand of Spark. Poor, poor shopkeeper, I'm sure he hates me now. The next unidentified wand with 9 charges went for 100 gp (turned out to be Light). Now, I enjoy getting rich quick as much as the next person, but I had the feeling that this might be something that wasn't coded to happen intentionally. If it's -supposed- to work that way, that's fine too. I've only tried this a handful of times, so it may be extremely rare for all I know.


Wonder spell - just thought I'd mention that the description in the spellbook, while it does list the variety of possible effects, is just fine. It doesn't run out of room like the wands did.


About the Phase Door and Teleportation we discussed earlier - I found out today that the spell (rather than the scroll) descriptions include average distance to differentiate them. I don't know if the coding on the spellbook descriptions would be helpful in coming up with a solution for the scrolls, but I thought I'd mention it.


An idea for the descriptions that say things like "for 40 power" - if it's too complicated to make it clearer in descriptions, maybe an explanation of what it means could instead be included in the help files instead. Might be easier in the long run, and it would certainly work just as well.


Service of Gauge Magic - I purchased this service, choosing an unidentified piece of armor that I was wearing at the time. The final message I saw was "Taken!" which made me immediately check my equipment to make sure the shopkeeper hadn't taken it. Of course it was still there and everything was fine. I've since realized that shops must be coded to give that as one of several random messages to conclude a sale (including services). Obviously this is very minor, just a little awkwardness rather than a problem.


Regarding combinations of:
carry_query_flag
floor_query_flag
Apparently the latter only works if the former is also enabled - without that, it still picks up the entire stack without letting the player choose. I don't know if that's the way it's meant to work, but I'm assuming it probably is, because from a coding standpoint, it really would make sense. So, assuming it is not a bug...

Ideally, it is just more convenient not to have to confirm every single item you want to pick up across the dungeon. In the early game, we tend to want to pick up nearly everything since we haven't yet identified many potions, scrolls, etc. In some spots, that can be a LOT of picking up in a very small area. Being able to skip that extra keystroke for every single pickup is very attractive.

On the other hand, not being able to take advantage of enabling floor_query_flag unless we leave the other enabled can be a real annoyance. If you have only one or two available inventory slots, trying to 'get' something from a pile often means you have to do a little dance of getting the first couple of things from the pile, dropping them both, then getting what you really wanted in the first place. Yup, kind of a pain in the tush.

Could the coding be altered so that when floor_query_flag is enabled, the game asks for confirmation -only- when getting from a pile?

[Bandobras]

Hmm. It would be helpful to come up with something that's more clear, but I'm not sure how to put it. Could it be explained as a percentage? [...]

Filed a feature request to that effect.

I'd be for:
1. getting rid of that message and making it a note that pops up, which makes it look more like information than a warning.
2. getting rid of the automatic feeding upon arrival - if they've already received the note, and "hungry" appears on their screen, they'll know what to do about it. If they ignore that and actually die of starvation that early in the game, well, it'll just teach them to actually read the notes next time. lol. The way it's set up was definitely a worthwhile idea - it just isn't coming across well in practice.

Added to the bug report about auto-eat. Actually, players can probably starve without Hungry status, but they can't with Full status. Of course it can be tweaked so that only Hungry status is dangerous, but then travels become quite cheap and safe.

Staff of Light - "When used, it lights up the room you are in and surrounds you with magic of radius 1 to light up. When set in a trap, it lights up one target." -IF- this is supposed to do damage to monsters that are vulnerable to light (and that might not be the case) it doesn't say that in the description (which might be intentional anyway).

It says about damage, but only when the staff is identified with scroll of *Identify*, ordinary Identify does not work. Strange, but I'm not sure if a bug.

Staff of Enlightenment - "It sustains intelligence and wisdom." Does it have to be wielded for that to be true?

Yes. The general rule is that any items provide their constant effects (as opposed to temporary one-time effects) only when wielded. I guess this should be somehow illustrated in documentation.

Rod of Disarming - "When zapped, it creates a beam to remove traps from your enemies. When set in a trap, it removes traps from one target." I have this mental image of a monster wearing a bomb around his waist and shouting "Give me all your gp or die, sucker!" Do monsters actually have traps on them, or is there something funky here?

Yes, that's a special case that is not handled properly. Filed a bug report.

And a feature request for someday - Word of Recall was modified on Zangband to allow you to optionally "reset" the dungeon's recall level to the one you're standing on when you read it. It was apparently done because of traps that could dump a character onto a lower level than they're ready for. If that happened, you could climb up to a safer level, then read the scroll, and it would ask you if you want to reset it to that one. I'd like to see that here at some point, although I'm sure you guys already have tons of things on the todo list as it is. It was an extremely useful little goody.

This feature is present in Un. If it does not work for you, please report.

[Bandobras]

One more case does not hurt. Updated the bug with your report. Thanks.

[Karzack]

I just received a "Bug: Bad Maze on level. Please report it."

I found it listed on the bug list, but thought I should mention it anyway. I received it while going from lvl 15 of the Midgewater Marsh to lvl 16.

Is this needed? Probably not since its been reported once.

[Anne]

Carrying over some things from the other thread...

No, it's a factor that determines the probability of success, if I don't oversimplify things? Perhaps we should calculate the probability and display here, then...

Yeah, in both cases of "power". How to say it better?

Hmm. It would be helpful to come up with something that's more clear, but I'm not sure how to put it. Could it be explained as a percentage? "has a 40% chance of recharging <item>"? I've come across three different levels of charging power so far, so whatever we come up with, it needs to differentiate between them. Maybe someone else who reads this will have a suggestion?

It's now "it makes you faster". Is your version better? I'm not a native speaker...

No, yours is just fine.

Sounds reasonable, but it's the same object flag as in ?Teleportation, only a numerical factor (quite complex formula, actually) differs. Is it worth extending the engine? If so, I'll file a feature request to that effect.

Truthfully, I'm not sure whether it's important at all. It really depends on whether you want that to be something for raw newbies to figure out on their own. They're the ones who wouldn't have seen things like blink and teleportation before. It certainly isn't vital, and I'd say if it would be an easy change, then it's something to consider. But if it would take too much work, then maybe not.

Fixed. I tried to enable eating from the menu, but it's too messy, e.g. when you gorge yourself or spit fire the rest of the window has to be updated... So now 'E' just exits the travel menu with a message (the same one-sentence warning, as before the travel menu).

Wonderful. That will make it less confusing to a raw newbie taking his first steps in the game.

So, how to make it clear that it's only a warning and that is does not mean the character is hungry (it means the character is not Full, actually)?

I'd be for:
1. getting rid of that message and making it a note that pops up, which makes it look more like information than a warning.
2. getting rid of the automatic feeding upon arrival - if they've already received the note, and "hungry" appears on their screen, they'll know what to do about it. If they ignore that and actually die of starvation that early in the game, well, it'll just teach them to actually read the notes next time. lol. The way it's set up was definitely a worthwhile idea - it just isn't coming across well in practice.

A few new ones:

Staff of Light - "When used, it lights up the room you are in and surrounds you with magic of radius 1 to light up. When set in a trap, it lights up one target." -IF- this is supposed to do damage to monsters that are vulnerable to light (and that might not be the case) it doesn't say that in the description (which might be intentional anyway).

Staff of Enlightenment - "It sustains intelligence and wisdom." Does it have to be wielded for that to be true? If so, can that be added in somehow? Maybe another category could be coded into the descriptions such as "When wielded, (yadda yadda)". Maybe using the term 'categories' isn't very clear - I mean like the ones for "When aimed, it does this" and "When quaffed, it does this".

Rod of Disarming - "When zapped, it creates a beam to remove traps from your enemies. When set in a trap, it removes traps from one target." I have this mental image of a monster wearing a bomb around his waist and shouting "Give me all your gp or die, sucker!" Do monsters actually have traps on them, or is there something funky here?

And a feature request for someday - Word of Recall was modified on Zangband to allow you to optionally "reset" the dungeon's recall level to the one you're standing on when you read it. It was apparently done because of traps that could dump a character onto a lower level than they're ready for. If that happened, you could climb up to a safer level, then read the scroll, and it would ask you if you want to reset it to that one. I'd like to see that here at some point, although I'm sure you guys already have tons of things on the todo list as it is. It was an extremely useful little goody.

[Bandobras]

I have to admit this made me "woo!" I enjoy testing. What can I say, I'm a female - I do enjoy the hack & slash, but a steady diet of it tends to get old for me after awhile. So testing works in nicely.

I understand you quite well. As much as I enjoy hack and slash, helping with development just opens another dimension, you know, like being able to help with a director's cut of your favourite movie.

Sounds quite fascinating! Now if I can only keep a character alive long enough to hear that...

Just make sure you are not the one that makes the noises.

That clarifies the mana gain perfectly.

Oh, I'm glad.

As long as we have that, we can live with a bit of untidyness like "electrifys".

Well, that one is reported as a bug. Either we change "electrify" to "strike with lightning" or something, or we fix the plural forms in the engine.

I'm sure I'll still throw you things here and there that aren't possible within the system, but that's because you know far better than I do what's possible and what isn't.

That's good. Sometimes it's easy to tweak the system, or sidestep it. At least, it's good to see the limitations in action, so that we are aware of them...

[Anne]

Options are generally quite untested...

I have to admit this made me "woo!" I enjoy testing. What can I say, I'm a female - I do enjoy the hack & slash, but a steady diet of it tends to get old for me after awhile. So testing works in nicely.

Did you try pressing 5 on the keypad? (I think its the stand there and do nothing key) It works for me.

Thank you! I believe that should be '.' in the roguelike keyset. I had a feeling I was just missing something on this one.

Yeah, deeper down you sometimes hear clicks and then wails and death cries. Just be careful.

Sounds quite fascinating! Now if I can only keep a character alive long enough to hear that...

Brought over from another thread since it's more appropriate to comment here:

You are right. I tried "replenish", but I got "replenishs mana of you", which was quite unnatural (though "hits to replenish mana of one target" further in the description was perfect), so I settled for "return", which gives "returns mana to you" and "hits to return mana to one target". Sorry, no chances of localizing Un, either, if even the grammar of the simplest languages on Earth brings such trouble.

That clarifies the mana gain perfectly. Now that I have a somewhat clearer understanding of how the descriptions are generated, I can see that some of the things I'd assumed to be typos are really just limitations in the ability of coding to deal with the complexities of the language. English can be pretty complicated, really, with all its exceptions to rules and such, and coding a 'perfect' system would be far more work than it's worth (if it was even possible). The important thing is that the description is understandable. As long as we have that, we can live with a bit of untidyness like "electrifys". I'm sure I'll still throw you things here and there that aren't possible within the system, but that's because you know far better than I do what's possible and what isn't.

[Bandobras]

The good thing is that once I'm used to what's -supposed- to happen with my clean character, then I'll be better equipped to recognize wonkiness when I do try it with options.

That'd be very useful. Options are generally quite untested...

Speaking of which... that crashing that I mentioned earlier, I've found the culprit. Enabling cheat_lore and bringing up the current -object- knowledge crashes the game every time. Other current knowledge topics don't do that.

Well spotted. 100gp is yours. Fixed.

When carry_query_flag is enabled

Already answered by Rizwan. There must be the same command in roguelike keyset. Was it '.' or 'g'?

I sold an unknown wand to the shop after using Gauge Magic which identified the number of charges on it (but not the type).
"You sold a Wand of Light (9 charges) (g) for 109 gold.
The shopkeeper glares at you.
You have no more Blue Wands of Light (8 charges) (g)."

Filed a bug report.

The monster damage bar remains onscreen after avoiding a fight, even after walking quite some distance away from a stationary monster such as a mushroom patch. This isn't a real problem except for the fact that it covers up other things normally visible on the status bar. Not a big problem, just an inconvenience, and maybe it deserves a look. I could see it if the monster was still close by or chasing me, but not a stationary monster halfway across the level.

It only obscures gold, which is quite unimportant down there, unlike the knowledge that the last monster that chased you didn't die, but lurks somewhere. When you get back to town, the gold is visible again, unless you run amok targeting townsfolk.

And this isn't a bug, it's just downright fun and I just had to mention it - I found an area in the dungeon where I kept kept seeing "Click!" every couple of steps. It drove me a bit batty trying to figure out what it was, but it was also a lot of fun trying to puzzle it out (it's still a mystery). This is one of those cool little things that makes Un so enjoyable. I loved it!

Yeah, deeper down you sometimes hear clicks and then wails and death cries. Just be careful.

[Rizwan]

Some other things I've noticed:

When carry_query_flag is enabled (it is by default), there doesn't seem to be a way to get something from the floor you're standing on other than to move off and then back on again, which will bring up the query. Maybe I just haven't figured out how to do it, raw newb that I am.

Did you try pressing 5 on the keypad? (I think its the stand there and do nothing key) It works for me.

[Anne]

Thank you again for your help. I hope you have time to actually play.

You're very welcome. And actually, I'm having a lot of fun with my little test dummy character. It was a little hard to get used to at first, going without any of the cool little options - you would not believe how fast a person can get spoiled with that auto-search! On the other hand, a lot of the bugginess I saw at first isn't happening at all with my clean character, so that's a definite plus. The good thing is that once I'm used to what's -supposed- to happen with my clean character, then I'll be better equipped to recognize wonkiness when I do try it with options.

Speaking of which... that crashing that I mentioned earlier, I've found the culprit. Enabling cheat_lore and bringing up the current -object- knowledge crashes the game every time. Other current knowledge topics don't do that.

Some other things I've noticed:

When carry_query_flag is enabled (it is by default), there doesn't seem to be a way to get something from the floor you're standing on other than to move off and then back on again, which will bring up the query. Maybe I just haven't figured out how to do it, raw newb that I am.

I sold an unknown wand to the shop after using Gauge Magic which identified the number of charges on it (but not the type).
"You sold a Wand of Light (9 charges) (g) for 109 gold.
The shopkeeper glares at you.
You have no more Blue Wands of Light (8 charges) (g)."
Is that the way it's supposed to work? It lost a charge between my inventory and the shopkeeper's. Maybe it's assumed he has to use up a charge to identify it? If not, then there's something wonky there. I've only tried this once, so I can't be sure whether it would happen every time or not yet.

The monster damage bar remains onscreen after avoiding a fight, even after walking quite some distance away from a stationary monster such as a mushroom patch. This isn't a real problem except for the fact that it covers up other things normally visible on the status bar. Not a big problem, just an inconvenience, and maybe it deserves a look. I could see it if the monster was still close by or chasing me, but not a stationary monster halfway across the level.

And this isn't a bug, it's just downright fun and I just had to mention it - I found an area in the dungeon where I kept kept seeing "Click!" every couple of steps. It drove me a bit batty trying to figure out what it was, but it was also a lot of fun trying to puzzle it out (it's still a mystery). This is one of those cool little things that makes Un so enjoyable. I loved it!

[Bandobras]

I seem to remember that auto_more is very broken (probably intended for people with a separate window for messages, or something). But easy_more is mostly correct, so any specific reports may help locate the remaining errors.

I'm assuming that restoring from a copied save file won't interfere with getting clean results, but if you think that's a bad idea for some reason, let me know and I'll ditch the idea.

Yeah, restoring is OK and savefiles greatly help in reproducing obscure errors. Thank you again for your help. I hope you have time to actually play.

[about Karzack's idea] Actually that's not a bad idea. Maybe it would be best in the case of something like bless?

Yeah, a file that explains Bless, Hero, Berserk would be nice. Even things that are obvious from description and experimentation, like feather fall, may be explained here for the player to make sure he did not miss any additional effect (like resistance to teleport level from feather fall, but that is probably not true in Un, I don't remember ).

[Anne]

What about a separate help file that can be accessed with "?" like others. In this file would be glossary that defines all of these bonuses. Like haste, bless, etc., or add what ever else you think would be necessary. This would allow more detail if needed.

Just a thought.

Actually that's not a bad idea. Maybe it would be best in the case of something like bless?