Chengband / Entroband

[chris]

Even with that rationalization, it's still counter-intuitive that Teleport and Teleport Level should behave differently.

So I should change Teleport too?

;D

[relic]

If you don't want players to use Teleportation, why not just remove it, rather than nerfing it.

[Djabanete]

So I should change Teleport too?

;D

If you hate me, then yes!

[kingvictory2003]

Good to see you in the Cheng fold, Brian.

I think teleport is just fine the way it is. It's risky enough to use given the random packs of awake nasties and the horrendous pits one finds in Cheng/Heng.

One thing I hope never, ever comes to pass...would be permanent Preserve Off. That was the one thing that really turned me off of Entro tbh.

[chem]

Hi King! Entro didn't have perma preserve off, I swear! It was perhaps the default...

Chris/crew:

I was just considering a new character, and wanted to play a demigod race of a melee class which had a great chance to critical hit with big, heavy weapons. Going through all the classes, a weaponmaster specializing in clubs (mace of disruption) would be the best non-zerker choice.

However, let's say you actually find Deathwreaker. It already provides r_disen and it prevents teleportation. So the signature weapon ultra-ability of a weaponsmith would actually be *very* bad for it! The (+10,+10) pales in comparison to losing the ability to unequip it should you need to tele, and r_disen was already present. This is quite disappointing and made me rethink playing that specialty entirely! Perhaps the signature branding should be changed? While I'm on the topic of specialties: it'd be cool if you also started with a weapon type of your specialty, so I actually started with a mace of disruption. I know that causes balance issues but let's face it: hengband and its variants are way beyond fretting about something like a simple normal weapon.

In general, I would like a new class: the Mauler. Little/no ranged skills or device/search/etc skills. Good saving throw. Awesome melee skill -- but only for weapons _over_ a certain weight (say, 15.0 lb?). Extra blow like warrior. Good at critical hits. Bad at dual wield. Think of him as a big dumb warrior on steroids or zerker-lite. Maybe make him tough, with some kind of AC bonus too. A brawler but not a zerker.

I'd also like the ability to pay X amount of gold where X is a large number and have a shop turn an item into an artifact (dlvl lowest recall level of dungeons visited) or just sell me a scroll of artifact creation. Or have a race or class with the ability to somehow create artifacts. Now THAT would be a balance issue to worry about, but... a fun one.

One last thing for the wishlist: ironman astral mode.

edit: p.p.s. -- what's the one class not to have a single winner posted in either hengband, entroband, or chengband? I believe it's the Imitator! Any others? How about races? Of races the variants have in common, I see: amberite, elf, half-orc, and imp having no winners (anything missing on incorrect?)

[dzhang]

Er... my design philosophy is to make sure there's not a dominating birth choice. If you start out with your specialty weapon, no one is going to pick long swords over diamond edges. As it stands, Long Swords are quickly available early on, and there a few good end game ones, so the choice is less clear.

Another design philosophy is not to overly reward tedious grinding. If you allow money to create artifacts, it makes the game much less fun IMO. And the buy ?oArtifactCreation mechanism is already there: Just take Merchant's friend, and go nuts shuffling BM stock. I've seen it there before. My guess is that it runs probably 10 millionish?

[chris]

However, let's say you actually find Deathwreaker. It already provides r_disen and it prevents teleportation. So the signature weapon ultra-ability of a weaponsmith would actually be *very* bad for it! The (+10,+10) pales in comparison to losing the ability to unequip it should you need to tele, and r_disen was already present. This is quite disappointing and made me rethink playing that specialty entirely! Perhaps the signature branding should be changed? While I'm on the topic of specialties: it'd be cool if you also started with a weapon type of your specialty, so I actually started with a mace of disruption. I know that causes balance issues but let's face it: hengband and its variants are way beyond fretting about something like a simple normal weapon.

If you find Deathwreaker, then just don't signature it, but unless you are playing unusual rooms, you probably won't find it so I don't think it is much of an issue. In normal play I think I have found Deathwreaker only 2 or 3 times ... Its like Bladeturner in that respect.

Not starting with your specialty weapon is strangely both frustrating and addicting ... Dave is correct, if you got it then why not pick Diamond Edges every time? Weaponmasters really appeal to my obsessive compulsive nature as they revolve around using ?ArtifactCreation on your specialty weapon if you are going for one of the elite weapons (and who isn't!). So I feel I *must* play a bit more to get my weapon. And then I look at Victor's goodies and feel I *must* play a bit more to get so lucky ... And then I don't

The Old Castle can be conquered fairly quickly and will grant you a random artifact of your speciality. Sometimes this is really nice. Sometimes this is frustratingly weak.

In general, I would like a new class: the Mauler. Little/no ranged skills or device/search/etc skills. Good saving throw. Awesome melee skill -- but only for weapons _over_ a certain weight (say, 15.0 lb?). Extra blow like warrior. Good at critical hits. Bad at dual wield. Think of him as a big dumb warrior on steroids or zerker-lite. Maybe make him tough, with some kind of AC bonus too. A brawler but not a zerker.

Hmm ... I think we already have so many strong melee classes. I really like some of the new ones that offer alternative playstyles even if they take some getting used to (and I would include Hengband's final two of Hex and Sniper on this list). Plus we are almost getting to the point where you won't be able to create a new character unless you have an extra large monitor thanks to all the class choices

I'd also like the ability to pay X amount of gold where X is a large number and have a shop turn an item into an artifact (dlvl lowest recall level of dungeons visited) or just sell me a scroll of artifact creation. Or have a race or class with the ability to somehow create artifacts. Now THAT would be a balance issue to worry about, but... a fun one.

One last thing for the wishlist: ironman astral mode.

I'd hesitate on the artifact service ... You already have 3 means of getting scrolls other than finding them, including a very easy way (Doom Quest II) and a sometimes impossible way (Arena). Also, there are scrolls of madness which occasionally create artifacts. Finally, weapon branding is now far more powerful and there are scrolls for those (and even a craft spell!). All of these also really help out a weaponmaster who might have gotten screwed on their Old Castle reward ...

As for Astral Mode, I really enjoyed that in Gumband and found it very addictive, though it necessitated *huge* amounts of stair scumming. I'll need to think about this one ...

--Chris

[chem]

Hmm ... I think we already have so many strong melee classes. I really like some of the new ones that offer alternative playstyles even if they take some getting used to (and I would include Hengband's final two of Hex and Sniper on this list). Plus we are almost getting to the point where you won't be able to create a new character unless you have an extra large monitor thanks to all the class choices

As for Astral Mode, I really enjoyed that in Gumband and found it very addictive, though it necessitated *huge* amounts of stair scumming. I'll need to think about this one ...

We have strong melee classes, we have strong ranged classes, we have strong magic classes. I am just hoping for a general heavy-2H specialist. It's the missing link.

Astral will be cool if you can make it work! Fun mode.

I concede your other points to designer discretion

[dzhang]

We have strong melee classes, we have strong ranged classes, we have strong magic classes. I am just hoping for a general heavy-2H specialist. It's the missing link.

Astral will be cool if you can make it work! Fun mode.

I concede your other points to designer discretion

But Warriors already do that; no self respecting end-game warrior will be using a short sword. It's a natural outcome of the blows/round calculation that warriors (and others with high STR multipliers) gravitate to ~20-40 lb weapons.

So the end-game difference would be small, the Mauler would only play differently between CL 1 and 30, which typically goes by in a hurry.

[chem]

But Warriors already do that; no self respecting end-game warrior will be using a short sword. It's a natural outcome of the blows/round calculation that warriors (and others with high STR multipliers) gravitate to ~20-40 lb weapons.

So the end-game difference would be small, the Mauler would only play differently between CL 1 and 30, which typically goes by in a hurry.

Nah, my warriors would be dual wielding medium-weight weapons or using sword/shield. Just like...
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10129 your dual-wield heng winner
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10858 the top cheng warrior, light sword/shield
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11538 the next top cheng warrior, heavy weapon/shield
or all 3 of chris' top heng warriors (dual wield):

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9321

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=7089

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=5117

The whole point of the mauler would be to have a class driven to use heavy 2H weapons without dual-wield or shield. It could possibly be shoehorned in as a weaponmaster subclass if you don't want an entirely new class.

[dzhang]

Nah, my warriors would be dual wielding medium-weight weapons or using sword/shield. Just like...
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10129 your dual-wield heng winner
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10858 the top cheng warrior, light sword/shield
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11538 the next top cheng warrior, heavy weapon/shield
or all 3 of chris' top heng warriors (dual wield):

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9321

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=7089

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=5117

The whole point of the mauler would be to have a class driven to use heavy 2H weapons without dual-wield or shield. It could possibly be shoehorned in as a weaponmaster subclass if you don't want an entirely new class.

Hm, good point. I had forgotten that warriors tend to dual wield, since it's been a while since I played one, and the light weapons tend to have Extra Attacks, which combines nicely with Mastery Tonberry gauntlets.

I'll see what I can do to make a Mauler class more interesting than just a restricted warrior. (A.k.a. I'll open a new Wiki page and list some ideas, you should feel free to edit/contribute. Then we'll discuss somewhere or other where we think it's too broken/unbalanced/hard.)

[chem]

Cool, should be fun to spitball ideas. also a correction: chris' char links were entro not heng.