My latest dumb idea

LostTemplar · December 31, 2011, 09:07

This is close to how things are implemented currently in FA: There are all old commands still, but there is also extended "use inventory" command, that allows player to select item first, and gives a pop-up menu of what to do with this item e.g. {drop, throw, aim, squelch} for a wand.

So, general "FA already have this." comment.

Derakon · December 31, 2011, 05:15

I wasn't trying to suggest that the keymap system should go away, rather that much of what is currently done by keymaps could be done more easily and intuitively (and therefore usefully to new players) with a standard hotkey system.

d_m · December 31, 2011, 04:36

Originally posted by Derakon

If we had some simple hotkey setup though, then this wouldn't be necessary -- binding ! to "use Staff of Detect Evil" instead of "(use staff) (inscribed with @u0)" and letting the game track what kind of item I want to use would be nice.

I think in the long run we have to move in this direction.

While the current macro system is pretty powerful it's a bit arcane and hard to conceptualize as compared to what many other games do. I'm not saying macros would necessarily be removed, but I think a more basic hotkeys approach is essential.

EDIT: I should add that for V4 at least the hope is that a lot of the essential "detection macros" will be reduced, resulting in fewer "press X not to die" situations needing such macros.

Derakon · December 31, 2011, 04:26

The biggest problem I have with removing commands is that it interferes with my keymaps. On my warriors I often have keymaps for three rods, two staves, and possibly a scroll or two, not to mention my ammo -- for casters of course almost every spellbook gets its own "@m4" or whatever.

If we had some simple hotkey setup though, then this wouldn't be necessary -- binding ! to "use Staff of Detect Evil" instead of "(use staff) (inscribed with @u0)" and letting the game track what kind of item I want to use would be nice.

d_m · December 31, 2011, 04:21

So when we were thinking about this for V, we wanted to distinguish two different ideas:

1. Creating the smallest possible set of "necessary commands" (this is the set of commands a beginner would need to learn)

2. Removing commands (that are obsolete, redundant, or for other reasons).

We could add a unified use command (without immediately removing all the individual commands) which means new players won't need to learn to distinguish aim/use/Activate/etc. (e.g. #1).

We could remove / (recall command) because other commands make it unnecessary and it doesn't work well with tiles (e.g. #2).

I will try to start a new thread about this, but I just wanted to distinguish these two things since they are sometimes conflated. I suspect removing the distinct "use" commands would not be popular (with veterans at least) but we should be able to accommodate new players and veterans with the strategy I mentioned.

Estie · December 29, 2011, 21:00

As for m)agic and p)ray, that has been done long ago; priests can access their spells with m) just like mages.

Mikko Lehtinen · December 29, 2011, 18:10

I see two possible paths here:

1) The shortest possible list of commands
2) Streamlined set of commands, while still keeping much of the original roguelike flavour

Both paths would benefit greatly from an easier and quicker spellcasting/shooting interface. I believe it's possible to create a fast system that doesn't require the use of macros.

buzzkill · December 29, 2011, 16:45

It would be nice if we could use t for throw and find some other key to use for 'take off', maybe just use w for both. Press once to wield/wear, press again to un-wield/un-wear.

Get rid of m)agic and p)ray and use c for 'cast (a spell)'. Then use o to open or un-open (close) a door. I'm beginning to see a theme.

Mikko Lehtinen · December 29, 2011, 15:57

There are some benefits for not going all the way with the (u)se command. Namely, flavour, and getting a shorter list of objects to choose from.

I'd like to try something like this first:

(z)ap magic device -- for anything that requires Magic Device skill; uses up a charge
(e)at or drink -- automatic success, consumes the item
(r)ead, browse, perhaps learn spells -- all require light and not being confused

These commands unfortunately leave out refill. (For Fay, I've already solved this by removing lanterns and flasks of oil.)

nppangband · December 29, 2011, 14:14

Originally posted by Mikko Lehtinen

This is really important if we want to grow the player base.

I'm now officially adopting this quest for Fay. I'm planning to start marketing the game for a wider roguelike audience, and reducing the number of commands seems like a wise thing to do.

Would you or Antoine like to start a new thread about this? I'd love to hear your ideas.

I think there are a couple no-brainers to get us started:

Combine all of the use-object commands into one (quaff, read, fuel, aim, use, eat, zap, etc) into a single command of "use". Even activate could go into this command.
combine pray and cast into a single command.
Fire/Throw are redundant.
Commands to look at inventory and equipment.

Because of the knowledge screens, the command of '/' can be eliminated.

There are a bunch of commands for interacting with the dungeon that can be grouped together, but probably in more than one command: such as, alter, go up and down staircases, enter store, bash, open, close, jam, disarm, etc...

Then there are object specific commands, pickup, flip pickup, drop, inspect, destroy. Those can probably be strealmined into fewer commands as well.

Mikko Lehtinen · December 29, 2011, 10:14

Originally posted by d_m

YES! (While it has not born fruit yet) I have been on a quest to streamline and reduce the number of commands for awhile now.

This is really important if we want to grow the player base.

I'm now officially adopting this quest for Fay. I'm planning to start marketing the game for a wider roguelike audience, and reducing the number of commands seems like a wise thing to do.

Would you or Antoine like to start a new thread about this? I'd love to hear your ideas.

d_m · December 29, 2011, 05:41