[Norseband] I'm back--but where to go from here?

[LostTemplar]

I was not expecting somebody here to understand, but in case there is still a chance *NOT EVERY MONSTER IS MEANT TO EVER BE DEFEATED BY PLAYER*, but there will be doable winnig quest still, maybe several alternative quests.

And I need my own thread for my varinat.

[getter77]

Something Norse'ish flavoured would make for a cool variant indeed, be it somewhere Ragnarock'ish - Unreal World'ish----though if I had to dream big it'd be for something with the sense of wonder of a King of Dragon Pass/Glorantha-band....thing.

Would definitely fit in with the unbeatable foes angle due to lore and such at the least.

[ghengiz]

I was not expecting somebody here to understand, but in case there is still a chance *NOT EVERY MONSTER IS MEANT TO EVER BE DEFEATED BY PLAYER*, but there will be doable winnig quest still, maybe several alternative quests.
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Well, if you did not expect somebody here to understand, why did you post in first instance? someone could even take offence on the wording of your message...not that I did, but someone could.

Why "allmost" and what wrong ? Maybe +2 permanent speed will be available, **HUGE** bonus really 20% better at all actions. I am planning seemingly infinite monster list, so no matter what you can kill there is allways stronger monster, probably 300 possible, 200 impossible and 100 possible with huge luck. So no matter how good you are, somebody else can do better (kill stronger monster).

On the "what's wrong" issue, I just quote Derakon, who explain the speed part of it very well:

Given how important speed is in current Angband, you're going to have a heck of a time keeping the game balanced if you keep the current monster list (including monsters that move three or four times faster than normal speed) and take away the player's speed bonuses.

and I add that with the proportions you did indicate, about half of the monster a character will meet will be unwinnable...a bit too much, maybe...I have the impression that that will lead to *a lot* of insta-deaths. sure, you can always try and escape, but still...

[dzhang]

It's not too hard to balance having speed capped at +0 or +2. Just triple or quadruple the HP of @, and then have healing be scaled as a percentage of HP. The game becomes pretty different, as in you'll be taking the quadruple moves and eating up to 1500 points of damage per round from 3 Chaos Breathes, but I think it's doable.

[Therem Harth]

I really like that idea actually. The usual Angband method of having endgame characters with Matrixesque bullet-dodging reaction time is fun, but it gets kind of silly.

[Derakon]

Let me be clear: I have no problem conceptually with all-but eliminating speed bonuses from the player. Speed is indeed very powerful and thus massively skews the equipment decisions the player makes. I'm just saying that you can't remove such a huge contributor to the player's power without compensating in some way.

Even if you want the game to be very hard, it needs to not be impossible. Currently practically every monster past around 3000' is capable of killing the player outright if it gets two or three unanswered turns, and even if it isn't, the damage dealt would mean that the player would spend all his/her time healing with no room for offense. So you aren't supposed to fight any of the monsters from 3000' on? What about your Morgoth equivalent? Will it be weaker than the monsters leading up to it, so that the player actually stands a chance?

[LostTemplar]

Sorry for offencive post, and I shall first make something playable at least, before defending my point of view.

I am planning to place "winning point" at about dlvl 50, so all this "too hard monsters" will not be probably even met (except few OOD), but I want them still exist, to provide needed challenge in case somebody wants it (instead of egoless play or something like this) and to give the character possibility to have a "glorious death", so desired in norse tradition.

Another reason to do this is that I want to introduce gods into the game, so character will no longer be the strongest creature in the world, and since in norse tradition there are "evil" beings of about the same power as gods, there must be monsters stronger then player also.

I hope this explains my point.

[ghengiz]

Sorry for offencive post, and I shall first make something playable at least, before defending my point of view.

I am planning to place "winning point" at about dlvl 50, so all this "too hard monsters" will not be probably even met (except few OOD), but I want them still exist, to provide needed challenge in case somebody wants it (instead of egoless play or something like this) and to give the character possibility to have a "glorious death", so desired in norse tradition.

Another reason to do this is that I want to introduce gods into the game, so character will no longer be the strongest creature in the world, and since in norse tradition there are "evil" beings of about the same power as gods, there must be monsters stronger then player also.

I hope this explains my point.

It does, now I understand it a bit better
If you use Derakon's suggestion, or an equivalent one, to compensate for no permanent speed bonus, a shallower dungeon and something else for flavour (like the god idea, for example, or artifacts like thor's hammer), IMHO it can be enjoyable in the typical "to die is fun" roguelike way
keep us informed, ok?

[Djabanete]

Templar, your idea sounds like a pretty huge departure from Angband or any variant I've tried, but it sounds really cool. I think the speed question will sort itself out --- certain balance accomodations will become obvious, since you can't have every character just get instakilled all the time. Angband game mechanics rely on having a lot of powerful magical effects available, so I can imagine your game putting more emphasis on not getting damaged in the first place. You might also end up putting more emphasis on realistic combat mechanics or something like that. Angband without big speed boosts and big healing potions doesn't sound like Angband to me, so I imagine that you'll be diverging quite a bit from *band norms.

Ingeborg, I looked at your prospective change list and it looks like you have an awesome variant planned! It looks like tons of fun. I hope players will be able to fight sea monsters on ships and do crazy stuff like go fishing for the Midgard serpent like Thor did.

[ISNorden]

Templar, your idea sounds like a pretty huge departure from Angband or any variant I've tried, but it sounds really cool. I think the speed question will sort itself out --- certain balance accomodations will become obvious, since you can't have every character just get instakilled all the time. Angband game mechanics rely on having a lot of powerful magical effects available, so I can imagine your game putting more emphasis on not getting damaged in the first place. You might also end up putting more emphasis on realistic combat mechanics or something like that. Angband without big speed boosts and big healing potions doesn't sound like Angband to me, so I imagine that you'll be diverging quite a bit from *band norms.

Agreed! What makes an Angband variant different from other roguelikes, IMO, isn't the theme (there are at least 6-7 non-Tolkienian ones now!) or the tech level (Steamband reinvented that long ago, and Furyband went even further). It's the basic game mechanics: A player explores the world, learns more about items and monsters, becomes harder to kill (through some combination of learned powers, acquired items and innate abilities). Eventually, the player is powerful enough to try meeting whatever the *band coder has defined as Win Conditions: destroying an item, escaping a tough area, and/or defeating the Big Bad Boss(es). What DarkTemplar proposes, IMO, feels more like the Ragnarok game than a *band...the "harder to kill" and "tough enough to try" elements are noticeably absent.

Yes, the Norse texts often mention impossible odds and heroic deaths; it wouldn't break the theme to a few unkillable creatures or impassable places, things that make even a veteran player swear and quit the game. (The Ragnarok game uses unkillable bosses to enforce different Win Conditions, and one impassible area to let aimless map-explorers know they've gone too far.) But trying to balance "theme fidelity" with game-play expectations is MUCH harder than it looks.

Ingeborg, I looked at your prospective change list and it looks like you have an awesome variant planned! It looks like tons of fun. I hope players will be able to fight sea monsters on ships and do crazy stuff like go fishing for the Midgard serpent like Thor did.

You'll be happy to know that the Midgard Serpent is one of the four Big Bad Bosses that I've saved for the endgame in Norseband; being able to sail out and track him down is a must. (Somehow, just walking up to Thor and handing him the hammer in mid-battle doesn't feel the same!) The other Big Bads will be Surtr (the fire giant who burns Freyr), Fenrir (the wolf who swallows Odin), and Garm (the dog who mauls Tyr). Nidhogg, the dragon under the World Tree, will become the Super Big Bad: the player doesn't HAVE to fight him after beating the first four bosses, but (like Melkor in ToME) Nidhogg will challenge veteran players who want a special victory message on their character sheet.

[LostTemplar]

What DarkTemplar proposes

I am not a the dark side yet.

IMO, feels more like the Ragnarok game than a *band...the "harder to kill" and "tough enough to try" elements are noticeably absent.

I am currently making my variant (Yggband, coming soon), planning to make it somewhat like Moria (but easyer), with lvl's 51-127 just for fun after win, mostly the same like current Angband 101-127, but really hard, with transition to impossible.

[dzhang]

I am not a the dark side yet.
I am currently making my variant (Yggband, coming soon), planning to make it somewhat like Moria (but easyer), with lvl's 51-127 just for fun after win, mostly the same like current Angband 101-127, but really hard, with transition to impossible.

So... it's like Quickband with the deeper monsters available after the "boss" but none of the better gear? Honestly, I'm not sure how many players will want to stick around trying more and more impossible monsters, rather than start a new character. Hengband (and now Chengband) has always had the "Zombified Serpent of Chaos", a toughened version of the final boss that can spawn repeatedly for players to stroke their egos with by killing over and over, but not many do.

[Djabanete]

So... it's like Quickband with the deeper monsters available after the "boss" but none of the better gear? Honestly, I'm not sure how many players will want to stick around trying more and more impossible monsters, rather than start a new character. Hengband (and now Chengband) has always had the "Zombified Serpent of Chaos", a toughened version of the final boss that can spawn repeatedly for players to stroke their egos with by killing over and over, but not many do.

Maybe part of the game or scoring could revolve around how many "impossible" monsters you manage to kill, starting with the final boss of the main game. You could earn "glory" or something. Maybe your glory could also depend on how deep you manage to get after winning or how many super-deep treasure chests you manage to plunder. Then you can have a title that goes beyond winner, "Hero of Valhalla."

You'll be happy to know that the Midgard Serpent is one of the four Big Bad Bosses that I've saved for the endgame in Norseband; being able to sail out and track him down is a must. (Somehow, just walking up to Thor and handing him the hammer in mid-battle doesn't feel the same!) The other Big Bads will be Surtr (the fire giant who burns Freyr), Fenrir (the wolf who swallows Odin), and Garm (the dog who mauls Tyr). Nidhogg, the dragon under the World Tree, will become the Super Big Bad: the player doesn't HAVE to fight him after beating the first four bosses, but (like Melkor in ToME) Nidhogg will challenge veteran players who want a special victory message on their character sheet.

Looks like I'll be giving this one a try! Hope there are quests!

[HallucinationMushroom]

Valkyries? Will there be valkyries? I would like to play a valkyrie. Hey, I have a suggestion. Valkyries.

[Djabanete]

Need something destroyed?