[announce] Sangband 1.0.1 released

[ekolis]

Probably yes.
Regarding Ents: I vaguely recall that Ent-Wives were very different from Ents? If you don't want to bring them in play, you may want to make Ents male only.

Oangband has interesting Ents. They start small and fast, and end up slow and big. I don't know whether this would work in a skill-based variant.

Why does the player need to choose a sex for his/her character anyway, if it has no effect in-game?

As for O ents, I didn't realize they started "small and fast"... I thought they were always big and slow! What, do they start as seedlings or something? Kind of reminds me of the Deku race from "The Legend of Zelda"... didn't one of the Deku scrubs say that he would be honored to become the next Great Deku Tree, at the part where the first tree died in "Ocarina of Time"?

[Bostock]

Cool!

One odd game behavior that may be a bug and may be a feature: certain very powerful scrolls leave behind Alchemy materials (Silk, etc.) even if you don't have the skill. The two examples I know are Invoke Nexus and Curse Armor.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

"Changes - major gameplay: - The whole concept of linked skills, such as Burglary and Disarming or Swordsmanship and Jousting, has been rethought. Now, such skills are treated as linked pairs. For each pair, it is 1) cheaper to advance the paired skill if lower (either one), and 2) overall character power and score penalty does not increase as much when both are advanced. The most important gameplay effect of all this is that weapon-users and burglars will find it easier to get good scores. Some new pairings created, including one between Weaponsmithing and Bowmaking."

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Considering that -- if I'm not mistaken -- power is based on skills' base cost rather than discounted cost, this would only solve part of the problem -- taking a second, let alone third weapon skill would still severely cramp endgame development of support skills. (I have the same problem, to a lesser degree, with Disarming under the 100% Power limit.)

A heretical thought: perhaps power should be based on discounted skill cost?

Actually it is! Leon changed this in one of his final versions, based on my suggestions.

[Bostock]

Probably yes.

I would also like to see more efficient cross-training between weapon skills. Taking all three melee weapon skills costs now about 2,4 skills. The total cost should perhaps be closer to 2,0 skills or even a bit cheaper

Considering that -- if I'm not mistaken -- power is based on skills' base cost rather than discounted cost, this would only solve part of the problem -- taking a second, let alone third weapon skill would still severely cramp endgame development of support skills. (I have the same problem, to a lesser degree, with Disarming under the 100% Power limit.)

A heretical thought: perhaps power should be based on discounted skill cost?

Regarding townspeople: not stopping running (except for hostiles) and eliminating drops sounds fine. Perhaps hostiles could still have drops - you kind of have to kill them anyway, so you wouldn't be hunting them just for the drop.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Unarmed is a 10 cost skill at base, and weapons are 12 cost base. Perhaps they should even out a little bit, as I've tried to make them competitive with each other.

Probably yes.

I would also like to see more efficient cross-training between weapon skills. Taking all three melee weapon skills costs now about 2,4 skills. The total cost should perhaps be closer to 2,0 skills or even a bit cheaper, if you make weaponcrafting cheaper or more efficient. (Cross-training strategy competes with weaponcrafting.)

The first weapon skill that the player develops is probably the most efficient one for the race. At the moment it costs a bit too much to branch in other, less optimal weapon skills, just because you found that awesome weapon.

More efficient weapon cross-training would reduce tedium and the effect of luck on score. (If you happen find an awesome weapon and already have the skill to use it, you don't have to buy extra skills, and get better score.) It would also reduce the too-much-junk syndrome.

I guess part of the problem is that it's hard to say which races should be good with martial arts; there's a shortage of material from which to derive the answer.

As there are no canon answers, you can go with what plays well.

Regarding Ents: I vaguely recall that Ent-Wives were very different from Ents? If you don't want to bring them in play, you may want to make Ents male only.

Oangband has interesting Ents. They start small and fast, and end up slow and big. I don't know whether this would work in a skill-based variant.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

If unarmed Ents join the roster, sword-happy, unarmed-poor Elves would certainly make a better complement. I think they'd be more canon too.

Yes, but don't overdo it!

I do like elven karatekas, it's just that I want them to be able to swing swords too. I think karate 9, swordmanship 10 would be the way to go. (While systematically increasing most of the other races' unarmed skill costs.)

Elven karatekas play very differently from all those giant monster wrestlers. Elves are very frail, and have to rely on stealth and dexterity-based combat skills like karate, dodging and archery. It's really an unique playing experience. Combine this with Nature magic, and you start to get images of mystical Chinese warrior monks.

Besides, karate is what separates elves from dark elves. Dark elves are supposed to be better swordsmen, weaponsmiths and offensive magic-wielders; elves are quicker and better at karate, bow, and dodging.

[Bostock]

Unarmed combat skills are [...] even more problematic because there's not much replayability in martial arts. Angband has tons of ego and artifact weapons, and martial artists are missing most of the fun.

Alternatively, there could be new egos and artifact non-weapons that specifically aid martial arts. (Then there are exotic martial arts weapons like nunchucks, but I doubt camlost would want those in the game any more than swordchucks, and me, I'm indifferent.)

Most characters should use melee weapons. Karatekas and wrestlers should be a minority.

Well, a 2/6ths minority.

[camlost]

(It would be nice to hear a comment -- even a "no" -- on my townspeople thoughts from a while back... I really don't think run-stopping, ranged-aggroavable, melee-unaggroavable townspeople add to the game.)

I'm not quite sure what Leon wanted with them. Making them non-disturbing certainly makes sense. Removing the drops is the most sensical solution to the ones that players might attack for money.

Unarmed combat skills are far too cheap at the moment. At the moment all races except dark elves have the cheaper martial arts skill at 10 or less, often at 8 or even less. In comparison, three races have the cheapest melee weapon skill at 11 or 12.

Unarmed is a 10 cost skill at base, and weapons are 12 cost base. Perhaps they should even out a little bit, as I've tried to make them competitive with each other.

I guess part of the problem is that it's hard to say which races should be good with martial arts; there's a shortage of material from which to derive the answer.

[Bostock]

I feel a bit spammy/thread-dominating, I hope I'm not bothering people...

Mikko - now I see your point, and I agree with you.

I have plans to add Ents, at the very least. I have no idea which weapon skills they'd be good with (though there's probably a racial anti-preference for polearms). I would guess that martial arts is also their thing.

While you're at it, you could create a more elegant paradigm for shapechanging into what is completely (Ents) or somewhat (Half-Trolls) your own race (currently Half-Trolls get full benefit for trollform). :-)

Perhaps elves should be less good with karate?

If unarmed Ents join the roster, sword-happy, unarmed-poor Elves would certainly make a better complement. I think they'd be more canon too.

Or perhaps weapon penalties should extend to martial arts?

I don't think that penalizing them fits the priestly-weapons trope too much... but I guess I can see it.

Or perhaps it's truly time to upgrade blunt weapons to be as good as sharp weapons and remove the priestly penalties. It's not like there are ancilliary benefits to priests over mages anymore (better hp, combat abilities, etc.).

Oh! I didn't know that! In that case sure, why not?

Don't forget, however, that sharp weapons have one little-discussed penalty: monsters resistant to them come far earlier than other weapon-resistant monsters.

I have to ask before I axe a race -- Gnomes aren't exactly true to the source, and dark-elves fill a fairly similar niche. Are gnomes necessary?

Sex is necessary. Gnomes aren't necessary. It would be nice to have someone replace them as the device kings, though.

(It would be nice to hear a comment -- even a "no" -- on my townspeople thoughts from a while back... I really don't think run-stopping, ranged-aggroavable, melee-unaggroavable townspeople add to the game.)

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Unarmed combat skills are far too cheap at the moment. At the moment all races except dark elves have the cheaper martial arts skill at 10 or less, often at 8 or even less. In comparison, three races have the cheapest melee weapon skill at 11 or 12.

This is even more problematic because there's not much replayability in martial arts. Angband has tons of ego and artifact weapons, and martial artists are missing most of the fun.

Most characters should use melee weapons. Karatekas and wrestlers should be a minority.

I'd like to make throwing a bit cheaper, too. Perhaps lower the price for elves and dark elves by one. Just look at all the work Leon has done to make throwing interesting: you can throw axes, mushrooms, potions, vials of essence, even necromancer spellbooks! This skill has tons of replayability.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Also as a possibility is being more generous with mana and/or failure rate to low stat casters. That's the primary reason I have trouble with low-spellcasting-stat races. It's just so hard to have a reasonable amount of mana to use it effectively. That would help broaden the race/magic combos and alleviate the problem in a different way.

I like this.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

If you are honour-bound while holding a holy weapon, the weapon gets some extra abilities. And if you attack a fleeing opponent with a Holy weapon, you call the wrath of God on you...

If you don't like the talent, you could implement this as an ego item. Or as a curse on an ego item.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Does that mean that the restarting a character bug is gone?

Yeah!

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Perhaps elves should be less good with karate? Or perhaps weapon penalties should extend to martial arts? Or perhaps it's truly time to upgrade blunt weapons to be as good as sharp weapons and remove the priestly penalties. It's not like there are ancilliary benefits to priests over mages anymore (better hp, combat abilities, etc.)

How about this for elves: karate 9, sword 10, polearm 11, hafted 12.

As Bostock said, both priests and druids have lots of spells that help in battle. So it makes sense to give high-wisdom races many viable options for combat skills. (Dwarven clerics and rangers had many viable combat skills.)

I'm not against removing priestly penalties.

In their place, you could have something more flavourful. Like a talent Honour that you get by raising Piety. If you activate the talent, you get combat bonuses for as long as you fight honourfully. But if you attack a fleeing opponent, you get some severe penalties.

If you are honour-bound while holding a holy weapon, the weapon gets some extra abilities. And if you attack a fleeing opponent with a Holy weapon, you call the wrath of God on you...

Blunt weapons could have a bigger chance of being Holy.

I have to ask before I axe a race -- Gnomes aren't exactly true to the source, and dark-elves fill a fairly similar niche. Are gnomes necessary?

I've never liked gnomes.

Also, are giants necessary anymore? They used to be important, because there weren't any other tough and strong races that didn't have penalties for intelligence. Nowadays dwarves fill this niche.