Why aren't you playing Unangband?

[coyo7e]

Yes, I'd never heard of Unangband before, I've been playing Dungeon Crawl lately, but it's pretty unforgiving and has a lot of screwy artifacts and stuff. I was surfing around to DL the original Angband or Zangband, and stumbled onto this forum, and the descriptions of cool stuff like dipping arrows and other weirdness really excited me!

...Are there any online resources with class/race info, etc? The in-game helpfiles seem pretty far out of date, and I really am clueless about what some of the stats and classes are for/can do. What's size matter for, what's an artificer, is there any difference in the different "basic" (ie, all +0, 100% exp) races of men, except flavor-wise?

[Madoka]

For me, it's just too many variants with the band designation. I looked thorugh the Favorites Variants thread and tried several. I liked Hengband the most out of the three I had tried, and ended up on Entroband.

Just luck of the draw to begin with really. But now I really like the features of Entroband. If Un is similar I'd certainly give it a spin.

Oh, one other reason is that I'm on Vista, and Entroband is the only band that shows blocks for walls, which I prefer. Not a deal breaker certainly, but it is just another reason I stopped looking at variants after Entro.

[petebull]

The poll is missing an option:
- the berlios server don't respond

I'll try again

[andrewdoull]

The poll is missing an option:
- the berlios server don't respond

I'll try again

You're right. Berlios is intermittently rubbish. Pav has offered to take over hosting, and I keep meaning to take him up on it. However, the bug tracking on Berlios is (semi) useful, and I'll probably end up hosting it myself when we end up heading back to the antipodes in a few months.

[Daven_26d1]

Key points of difference from Sangband:
* Dungeon is more interesting, with more dungeon features than any other variant.

This gets me interested, but do you mean more feature tiles or more unusual rooms, or both?

* Possibly a harder game than Sangband.

Possibly? Can you give me a bit more on this? I *love* the more challenging variants/features. I'm not really bothered about being able to win a game, I just want to have to think carefully nearly every single turn inside the dungeon.

TBF, I'll probably give UnAngband a shot next seeing as how you're the only maintainer asking people why its not being played, I kinda feel sorry for you!

If a lack of players is likely to stop development of the project, that would be a shame. Come on peeps, play the guys game!

EDIT - I just read Matthias' post - throwing oil on a target to improve fire hit damage! Little features like that are a big winner for me. I love V for what now seems like simplicity, so in a variant I guess I thrive on complexity.

[Bodkin]

I've never had any problems with magical bags. Could you file a bug report and email me an affected save file?

What platform are you running on?

I don't have a savefile with this affliction; I'll send you the next one that comes along. The server at BerliOS isn't cooperating with me ATM, so I'll try to get around to filing a bug report later.

I'm playing on Windows XP.

[Matthias]

This gets me interested, but do you mean more feature tiles or more unusual rooms, or both?

No idea about the rooms, but yes, more features. And more ways to interact with them too. Search lit fireplaces for treasure, run into icewalls to take damage... Even building a bridge over a chasm

Possibly? Can you give me a bit more on this? I *love* the more challenging variants/features. I'm not really bothered about being able to win a game, I just want to have to think carefully nearly every single turn inside the dungeon.

Un is defenitly for you..

[Big Al]

The only things that are stopping me from playing Un right now are a) I don't have time to play any 'band at all and b) little/no documentation that I can find.

Otherwise, I think that Un will be the first variant I play when I get a chance. There have been just so many times that I think up some new feature that I'd put into a variant if I ever made one and find that Un already has it. I love the level generation code. The themed levels and themed rooms and such are awesome.

Only problem is that I run into a lot of things that I can't figure out what to do with. Things like flasks, took me a long time to learn how to use them. Things like animal fur, took me a while to learn that they don't do anything (or at least don't do anything that I can figure out - except add to the flavour). It seems that a lot of the commands and special features are still undocumented. Eg. I have some vague recollection that inscribing certain letters on certain objects will make them behave differently, but have no idea how it works. Maybe the user is just expected to experiment to figure some things out, but once I can see a more complete manual, I'm going to be a lot more inclined to play, I think.

[andrewdoull]

Only problem is that I run into a lot of things that I can't figure out what to do with. Things like flasks, took me a long time to learn how to use them. Things like animal fur, took me a while to learn that they don't do anything (or at least don't do anything that I can figure out - except add to the flavour).

Are you 'I'nspecting stuff as you find them? A lot of information is available - e.g. what you can do with particular items. For instance, inspecting a flask would have told you that its throwable, you can coat weapons with it, and you can set it in traps. There's still more discoverable things about flasks that are undocumented and potentially useful, but a bit of logical thinking should be able to figure out. e.g what flasks of blood are useful for, various tricks with flasks of oil and so on.

It seems that a lot of the commands and special features are still undocumented. Eg. I have some vague recollection that inscribing certain letters on certain objects will make them behave differently, but have no idea how it works. Maybe the user is just expected to experiment to figure some things out, but once I can see a more complete manual, I'm going to be a lot more inclined to play, I think.

There's several issues with writing documentation / manuals. The first one is I'm not sure how to deliver most of the documentation. I'd really like to have a context sensitive tips based documentation: you do something or encounter an object/monster with a particular trait, then find a note in the dungeon that tells you how this is useful. However, I've not come up with a scalable enough solution yet. If I write everything manually, for instance, there are 9x32 monster flags, and I'd really like a paragraph on each flag. Writing automated documentation, as I've done up until now makes it easier, but it doesn't tell you how it is really useful. For instance, fireplaces can contain objects, but you need to figure out how to put out the fire first before being able to get the object unscathed. I've got a comprehensive feature lore, but its not the easiest thing to figure out how each feature works.

I can't necessarily put the documentation up on a wiki either, due to copyright issues, unless I rewrite the whole Angband documentation from scratch. For instance, the Berlios wiki hosting requires GFDL licensing, whereas I really want GPL licensing on the in-game documentation so I can distribute it.

The other thing is that I haven't finalised the game implementation yet, so the documentation isn't fixed in stone.

What I'll probably continue to do in the short term is automate additional parts of the documentation (for instance the race and class docs could probably be automated a lot more, and allow fairly comprehensive, if spoilerish docs on all the races and classes). Then I'll figure out how to deliver context sensitive help, probably around the same time I move to either the redesigned Sangband or Angband front end term interface (I'm pencilling this in for 0.8.0, so some way off yet). Then it'll be a case of churning out lots of content for the context sensitive help, which will be the point at which you'll stand on an animal fur and the find the following note:

'Animal remains litter the dungeon and can be used to hint at what creatures inhabit the level you are currently on. Approximately two thirds of body parts you find will be from creatures that live on the current level. If you find rooms littered with animal fur, this strongly suggests that the strongest creature on the level is a furred creature, usually of the type of fur that you find.

Occasionally you wlll find a body part from a creature deeper in the dungeon - you can 'I'nspect or e'x'amine this to find out some information about the creature in question, even if you have not previously encountered it. If the most powerful monster on a level is significantly more dangerous than other monsters on the level, you will find a lot more remains than you would otherwise expect to do so, and far less other creatures.'

[Bandobras]

e.g what flasks of blood are useful for, various tricks with flasks of oil

Flasks of blood are useful? Wow, and I thought I know this game, because I've browsed through virtually all of source code... Also, the only non-documented trick with a flask of oil I know is lighting wooden floors under monsters. They get hurt and the smoke prevents them from seeing (but the latter doesn't work yet, I guess; at least I remember them casting bolt spells regardless of the smoke --- perhaps the smoke anywhere between you and the monster should dramatically increase the effects of dodging or just blind any monster inside smoke?). I also had no clue about animal fur and fireplaces...

unless I rewrite the whole Angband documentation from scratch. For instance, the Berlios wiki hosting requires GFDL licensing, whereas I really want GPL licensing on the in-game documentation

Sure, GNU GPL rules, especially that your texts will be partly shared between code and the manual. But what about the rewriting? Angband is now almost totally GNU GPL and quite possibly UnAngband does not even contain the pieces of code with missing permissions. Does the Angband Open Source Initiative not cover the in-game manual?

the race and class docs could probably be automated a lot more, and allow fairly comprehensive, if spoilerish docs on all the races and classes

I like this approach, that is both automated docs and spoilerish docs. While puzzle-solving is fun, it's one-time fun and Angband fun is so much greater, provided you know the mechanics of the game world, for which a very detailed, comprehensive documentation is great, because you are no more tempted to read the mood-breaking and boring spoiler tables or code-dive.

[Arendil]

Why aren't you playing Unangband?

As for poll - none of the above.

My reasons:

1) Way too buggy. I got random crashes or freezes nearly all the time at random intervals and from random, and unknown reasons.

2) Campaign mode is just...not for my taste at all. I prefer somewhat normal wilderness, not situation where you never know if you will be able to get back from where you went. And in most cases you will not.

[tigen]

Too many variants, too little time. I only tried NPP relatively recently, and even more recently Sangband. And a bit of Quickband, Oangband, FAAngband and ToME . All these games have lots of race/class or skill combinations to try. I should probably try Hengband too since people are talking about it. And I never mastered V in the first place

Plus I got the impression UnAngband was more a work in progress thing.

[Big Al]

Are you 'I'nspecting stuff as you find them? A lot of information is available - e.g. what you can do with particular items. For instance, inspecting a flask would have told you that its throwable, you can coat weapons with it, and you can set it in traps. There's still more discoverable things about flasks that are undocumented and potentially useful, but a bit of logical thinking should be able to figure out. e.g what flasks of blood are useful for, various tricks with flasks of oil and so on.

Yes, I use that a lot. It doesn't tell me exactly what throwing or coating does though. Maybe we're just expected to figure these out by experimentation...

The other thing is that I haven't finalised the game implementation yet, so the documentation isn't fixed in stone.

Understandably, it still a work in progress. I probably missed some of the docs somewhere along the line. With all the new features going in, it's hard to keep up!

'Animal remains litter the dungeon and can be used to hint at what creatures inhabit the level you are currently on. Approximately two thirds of body parts you find will be from creatures that live on the current level. If you find rooms littered with animal fur, this strongly suggests that the strongest creature on the level is a furred creature, usually of the type of fur that you find.

Occasionally you wlll find a body part from a creature deeper in the dungeon - you can 'I'nspect or e'x'amine this to find out some information about the creature in question, even if you have not previously encountered it. If the most powerful monster on a level is significantly more dangerous than other monsters on the level, you will find a lot more remains than you would otherwise expect to do so, and far less other creatures.'

Things like this would be immensely useful to me. Especially for dungeon features, eg. I've never found any use for 'painting on a granite wall'. Inspecting it tells you a plethora of details about whether you can tunnel through it or it will block spells, etc, but it doesn't say anything about how this 'painting' is any different from normal granite.

[andrewdoull]

Also, the only non-documented trick with a flask of oil I know is lighting wooden floors under monsters. They get hurt and the smoke prevents them from seeing (but the latter doesn't work yet, I guess; at least I remember them casting bolt spells regardless of the smoke --- perhaps the smoke anywhere between you and the monster should dramatically increase the effects of dodging or just blind any monster inside smoke?).

I'm saving all that for a comprehensive 'monster is aware of you but not aware exactly' code, that'll include player invisibility and so on. At the moment, I've done something similar with players hiding in darkness against monsters that need light, so its possible to expand on it.

[Fuma]

I have never played UnAngband, so just ignore this message if it's already in the game.

Have you considered using some kind of "adventurer's logs"?
These could be represented as worn/faded/dirty/old/whatever notes, which would contain information about various useful things, like what's the best use for a flask of oil, or some tips about inscriptions and whatnot.
Upon 'I'nspecting they could be randomly entitled in a fashion like "Log of randomname, The archer." and treated like artifacts, so the player won't be bothered by stacks of the same notes.

This idea obviously needs some polishing, but IMHO would be a good way of letting the player know about the more unusual game mechanics.