DSM at dlv 18?

[Selkie]

I always maintain rogues would be a much more interesting class if they had something like "slit throat".

An attack that can only be used on a sleeping enemy and doubles or triples the normal melee damage. It makes sense, because a sleeping enemy could be very specifically targeted to cause maximum damage and would make stealth a vital ingredient.

If you got this around cl30, maybe as the final spell in the town spellbook then it would work well for diving well below what would normally be advised for cl.

Also, rogues are supposed to be loveable scum bags who aren't afraid to fight dirty. There's no honour among thieves

[Pete Mack]

Once you hit legendary, stealth stops helping. Legendary stealth really is fun. Tiptoe right past Huan or the Tarrasque--or both at once, for that matter.

[Sky]

Interesting comments on Hit and Run - I haven't thought very hard about it, maybe it could use some work.

In FAangband, rogues get native backstab ability rather than a spell, and that is always a possibility for Vanilla.

Make Sleep Monsters Great Again

[bughunter]

Once you hit legendary, stealth stops helping. Legendary stealth really is fun. Tiptoe right past Huan or the Tarrasque--or both at once, for that matter.

Funny you mentioned that because my current rogue has had to tiptoe past the Tarrasque for the past five out of six levels.

The first time I thought he was ready to take out the big purple R, but damn, that bugger's breath hits hard and often.

I think he might be the only unique left, except for Sauron and Morgoth. He keeps appearing, and only him.

(Bumblef*ck found a nice randart staff that does almost 500 dpr, over 800 vs undead, and I love the mental image of a 2'6" halfling laying down some hurt with 6 feet of oak. But the Tarrasque just don't care.)

[bughunter]

Interesting comments on Hit and Run - I haven't thought very hard about it, maybe it could use some work.

It occured to me that there is potential for abuse with a Backstab on sleeping monsters (either spell or native ability) combined with a _Sleep Monsters. At least at early- and midgame when the monsters aren't immune.

But there are some high-level U and W I would *love* to be able to take down to half HP with a x2 or x3 damage attack before they wake up and start their s**t.

[Sky]

see, for example, the Tarrasque is a monster that just won't wake up, no matter what. You don't need high stealth to dance around him.
You got
1. mobs which are always awake - stealth does nothing
2. mobs which will wake even with high stealth, like dragonflies or bats
3. mobs which sleep so hard, you need to attack them - stealth does nothing
4. a few annoying mobs and uniques where stealth really matters, because it's early game and you have no escapes or TO and can't really buff yourself for the fight - Mim, Kim, etc, the Orc captains, Angmaite and his brother, etc.
At most, you'll use stealth to avoid Lorgan. But by the time you get to greater wyrms, stealthing is't necessary anymore - kill it, teleport it, or escape.

i get that walking past a 1-breath-dead monster can be exhilarating, but if you are finding yourself in those situations enough to value stealth, then maybe that's the reason you die so often.

FYI, in that ONE situation where you get a ridiculously OOD mob in a vault on early levels, don't try to stealth in, just get away.

[wv_wxman]

I just found Red Dragon Scale Mail (-2) [24, +29] <+2, +1> {??} at dlv 18 with a level feeling of just 3‽ I think it's Dwarven (it has +2 to Str and Con and +1 to infra) but I forget what else Dwarven egos have.

This just confirms to me that level feelings are not worth paying too much attention to, but it makes me wonder whether I understand how the feelings work, or whether DSM is more common than I thought at lower levels.

Thoughts?

Oooh, I just beat this.

At 350' - an amulet of ESP, lying in the floor.
At 450' - on a 7-9 level, I took out a wimpy ant pit. In said pit? PDSM.

Yikes.

[DavidMedley]

stealthing is't necessary

Is this a commonly held belief??

[Sky]

Is this a commonly held belief??

i don't know, maybe you should make a poll. Frankly i kill everything i can kill so for years i didnt even know stealth existed. And if i cant kill it i teleport it. And if i cant teleport it i leave.

[Estie]

Stealth is not necessary; you can use it to great advantage, _if_ you are willing to change your play style which Sky is not.

[Sky]

it's not a matter of playstyle. I keep repeating myself but someone i can't get anyone to acknowledge i have said this; there are only two ways to opt-in to stealth: boots of stealth and cloak of stealth.

In ANY other situation, stealth is not a deciding factor.

shields of elvenkind have a stealth bonus, but you don't choose them over shields of resistance because ALL elven shields also do resistance. When comparing two shields of elvenkind you will always prefer the one that plugs a resist hole. Going between +1 stealth and +2 isn't worth not having rShards when you could have the resist instead.

Boots of stealth are not an option unless you have gloves of FA first. If you do, boots of stealth is the only option until Speed is available - surely you're not going to pick FF over stealth as FF is completely useless.

on Cloaks, you can possibly have +3 stealth on cloak of Stealth vs +INT on cloaks of Mages or +1 Spd on Elven cloaks. Even then the bonus to Devices is generally enough to make my warriors prefer INT over stealth because zapping a rod of TO is an endgame ability, by which time you could even have Aggravation, just to clarify how little stealth is valuable to a late game warrior.



Every character *will* have stealth during their progression.
It's totally great to find cloak of stealth +3 and boots of stealth +3 early on. It's also much better to find boots of speed and elven cloak, or better yet, randart cloak.

There just isn't going to be a situation in the game where you have two items and you'll think "hmm, this sword does twice the damage of this dagger, but the dagger has +3 stealth, i think i will use the dagger".

Stealth is like +light. It gets thrown in there for free, it's great to have it, but just about everything else in the game is better than stealth.
FA is better than stealth. SI is better than stealth. Digging is better than stealth. a saving throw bonus or a devices bonus is better than stealth.
The only time you maximise stealth is when you have nothing to lose over it e.g. a chain mail of elvenkind rNexus +2 Stealth vs plate mail of elvenkind rNexus +1 stealth.

Armor Class is the only thing that i can compare to Stealth.

[Adam]

There just isn't going to be a situation in the game where you have two items and you'll think "hmm, this sword does twice the damage of this dagger, but the dagger has +3 stealth, i think i will use the dagger".

Stealth is like +light. It gets thrown in there for free, it's great to have it, but just about everything else in the game is better than stealth.
FA is better than stealth. SI is better than stealth. Digging is better than stealth. a saving throw bonus or a devices bonus is better than stealth.
The only time you maximise stealth is when you have nothing to lose over it e.g. a chain mail of elvenkind rNexus +2 Stealth vs plate mail of elvenkind rNexus +1 stealth.

I disagree. Stealth is better than digging. Also better than saving throw bonus or possibly device bonus. For mages it's also better than main weapon damage. I would clearly choose that +3 stealth dagger instead of the double damage.

[AceRimmer]

I disagree. Stealth is better than digging. Also better than saving throw bonus or possibly device bonus. For mages it's also better than main weapon damage. I would clearly choose that +3 stealth dagger instead of the double damage.

I've got to agree with Adam. I find it's not unusual to take a level 20-something character below DL50 wielding a Defender and two Rings of the Mouse while leaving "better equipment" (e.g. a Holy Avenger or a Ring of Damage) at home. When I can't kill anything, then damage doesn't mean much.

[DavidMedley]

I've played SO many -stealth characters over the last year (playtesting Blackguard) but Sky's anti-Stealth rant makes me want to roll up a hobbit or kobold rogue! Certainly, there is a lot of truth in what he's saying. I think there's a bigger middle zone than he suggests, though, where stealth makes an important difference.

[Selkie]

The big trouble with stealth is it doesn't save you from packs of hounds or worse still the dreaded vortices. These are both hard to detect and blast you from afar.

Digging on the other hand means escape routes, anti summoning corridors and little nooks (or crannies if you prefer) down long corridors to avoid ranged attacks.