A new opinion on no_selling

[Jay]

A couple thoughts:

- I like selling. As someone pointed out, it makes the early game more interesting because it gives you another avenue of making cash to improve your kit. Killing stuff and diving is great but selling provides another sub-plot to the game.

- I strongly prefer selling "on" if I'm playing a priest. It sucks to find some great weapon that I can't use because it's not blessed by the gods — being able to sell it means I can benefit from finding it even if I can't use it.

- It occurs to me that it might be possible to add a new element to the game that either complements selling or replaces it. For whatever reason, I've always had the idea that artifacts, even if useless to me, should be returned to town. (I mean, I've rediscovered a legendary item! It just seems wrong to leave it in the dungeon.) So, one way to add another element of interest to the game would be to create a ninth building in town, the museum. They only buy and never sell, but it would give you a place to take artifacts you don't need. (I realize this may not appeal to many — you can always see a list of all the artifacts you've found using "display artifact knowledge" — but I thought I'd throw it out there.)

[Voovus]

What would happen if money got scrapped altogether?

(For instance, replace it with a Charisma stat, which lets @ get stuff for free from the townsfolk. Higher Cha makes more valuable stuff available. Yes, there will be issues.)

[fph]

What would happen if money got scrapped altogether?

Even without reintroducing charisma, a version in which shops simply offer their ware for free would be playable, or at least playtestable.
The limiting rate to ensure that players do not get too many resources would be the stock refill rate (something like: !CCW start showing up at CL10, and they refill at a rate of one every 1000 turns).
The black market would restock veeery slowly, or even disappear completely (at that point, it could functionally be replaced by a slight increase in drop quality).

After all, Ironman has no shops, and the game still works.

(Inb4 "communist angband" jokes)

[tangar]

Charisma... Dream of all half-trolls in Middle-Earth.. I would love to see it even with no_selling ON

[sffp]

I love the no-sell option because the packrat in me previously would refuse to leave a high-value item in the dungeon no matter how heavy it was. I would constantly carry too much stuff with me (I do that already).

Now at least, I can look at the boots of speed +2 and say - I already have boots of speed +5 - I'll just leave those there (No extra trip topside to sell...)

[bio_hazard]

A couple thoughts:

- It occurs to me that it might be possible to add a new element to the game that either complements selling or replaces it. For whatever reason, I've always had the idea that artifacts, even if useless to me, should be returned to town. (I mean, I've rediscovered a legendary item! It just seems wrong to leave it in the dungeon.) So, one way to add another element of interest to the game would be to create a ninth building in town, the museum. They only buy and never sell, but it would give you a place to take artifacts you don't need. (I realize this may not appeal to many — you can always see a list of all the artifacts you've found using "display artifact knowledge" — but I thought I'd throw it out there.)

ToME 2 had the Mathom House where you could donate artifacts.

I'm pretty happy with how the game is now. Someone who wants to clear every level and haul back loot to sell can do so. Someone who wants to dive and not worry about loot can do so. I used to really enjoy the former but now when I play it's usually the latter. I think the no-sell makes sense as the default but I wouldn't object to an alert at character creation to make this more clear.

It might be fun to think about a hybrid system where you could start with selling then switch to no-sell (and maybe no money/free consumables) later.

[Bill Peterson]

All this argument would vanish if birth options and all other options were read from a text file. Sort of annoying to me that I can give Morgoth 50 HP but I have to go through all the options every time I start a new character, and remember to change the birth options before I start.

[Raerick]

All this argument would vanish if birth options and all other options were read from a text file. Sort of annoying to me that I can give Morgoth 50 HP but I have to go through all the options every time I start a new character, and remember to change the birth options before I start.

I think a solution would be for birth options should come up automatically prior to selecting race.

[godshatter]

I like no selling; but having it on by default is frequently very confusing to new players (and to returning old players used to having selling on).

I play with selling on, because that's the game I've been trying to beat for years. But I like having the option. If i can ever defeat the big guy, I'll probably try a run without it.

However, the problem I see with having no selling as the default is that players that encounter it for the first time get confused because you have shops, they have a sell option, and being able to buy without being able to sell seems odd, so they think the game is broken rather than immediately understanding that it's a different way to play.

I'm not sure what to do about it, it seems to break the idea of a shop if you're not allowed to sell, even if that's what normal life is like for most shops in RL. I wonder if just getting rid of shops with that option turned on is better. Have recharging stations, ID stations, and whatnot and maybe places you can upgrade your equipment for a price. Maybe a kiosk for consumables. Things that don't intrinsically assume a buying/selling arrangement. I doubt that would be fun in practice, though.

[Angdrim]

I like selling for two reasons:

- It makes the game harder. If there isn't lots of cash lying around (I assume if selling is on the amount of money on the floor drops), you need to use inventory space to haul your goodies around. And inventory space is one of the primary limitations in Angband. Anything that uses up inventory space is going to make the game harder, which I like.

- It preserves the last bits of role playing in the game. (This was especially true when half-trolls had to worry about low charisma and racist shop keepers.) Angband has never been a role playing-heavy role playing game, but when you go into a shop and get asked if you want to give away your Longsword of Gondolin it's a really sharp reminder that you're playing a puzzle game and not really a role playing game.

[Pete Mack]

Ang--
Not really.
1.. You will *always* drop expensive junk in favor of actually useful items.
2. The nominal value of expensive junk increases way faster than gold drops, after the first 10-ish dungeon levels.
3. You are unlikely to fill your inventory with useful items until well into the game, when you're carrying swaps, resistant potions, multiple spellbooks, etc.
4. No selling may end up with more gold at the end, but it takes a looong time to get there: early in the game, sellers get more gold, and the reason gold drops wiin in the end is because few people bother to sell after some few hundred K gold.

What selling DOES do is encourage you to recall more often.

[Sphara]

For role playing, I would like to be able to interact with shopkeepers by other means than just buying/selling/browsing. After all, both Luthien and Rincewind are shopkeepers in Angband

[FogSpear]

This is my new player opinion on the no-selling option in Angband Vanilla (4.2.1).

After reading the poll and the comments, I have the following:

- yes, new players naturally expect both buying and selling in a shop to be available (turned on) by default.
- from a UI perspective, having options that rely on double negatives (eg not having a no-selling option vs not having a selling option) is confusing to users. It’s a similar UI problem to when I present metrics at work - if a high number means good in one instance and bad in another, the cognitive load on the reader/user increases without value.
- As stated in my first post in this forum, and reflected in some of the comments in this thread, I also believe that charisma would be useful with the selling option turned on - particularly with the idea of haggling mentioned in the thread.
- I agree with the comments that a buying/selling sub-plot is interesting to new players but recognize that such can get old for seasoned players. The current option to turn it on/off seems to meet both use cases.
- BTW - determining the asking price before actually selling an item was not clear at first; so I ended up selling items without knowing what I would get for them until I figured it out.
- I see the conflict of managing a large inventory while returning to town to sell items for gold. That conflict seems like a legitimate gameplay decision IMHO. If it becomes a problem with your play style - turn selling off.
- I also like the idea of a museum (or the middle earth equivalent) that buys artefacts when you bring them back to town - relieve your inventory and have a place to see them/share them with the townspeople.

[whartung]

- As stated in my first post in this forum, and reflected in some of the comments in this thread, I also believe that charisma would be useful with the selling option turned on - particularly with the idea of haggling mentioned in the thread.

Honestly, having a sell or no sell option (however communicated or defaulted) is the best option.

I think the "code load" necessary to maintain and manage a CHR statistic is too high for the minimal value it would provide.

Not only do you need the statistic, but you need items that affects, potions that buff, "ugly" potions, etc. All of which would honestly be of minimal use overall.

The reason "seasoned" players turn this stuff off is simply that the "shine" of things like haggling dim very quickly. It's neat. Once. But while the shops do have value, as currently implemented, their value rapidly diminishes as you dive outside of having a Home and essentials like food and all the WoR you can carry. You travel to the other stores, but their gear is so low in quality, and you have so much money, it's really kind of pointless.

As done currently, the money game simply isn't. There's always that rare chance, especially early on, of getting a powerful enough item that you can actually afford. But otherwise it's used for IDing things, recharging things, and basic essentials.

A lot of work for minimal "real" gameplay and decision making.

[FogSpear]

I think the "code load" necessary to maintain and manage a CHR statistic is too high for the minimal value it would provide.
...
A lot of work for minimal "real" gameplay and decision making.

I understand that may be.

As a noob to this community, is there somewhere to better understand:
a) the game design principles
b) the governance model for decisions
c) measurement techniques for in-game balance
d) whether instrumenting of features has been conducted for usage stats
e) how refactoring plays into modernization of the code base and feature requests

I am curious about how this code has continued to thrive over time and how the community has gathered around it.