Blackguards: 4.2.1 to 4.2.2 (and beyond?)

[Estie]

My experience is also very different. For me if bloodlust is running it never ends. Move, kill, move, kill, move, kill... I pretty much have to deliberately stop and sit in a corner for it to ever end. The buffs are near permanent in the endgame. Move, kill, move, kill... your SPs will overflow if you don't cast something and casting heals, so I cast before they end and stack up the duration.

Also if you aren't werewolfing you are missing out. It has fast move. Failing this once is losing less turns then moving at normal speed is.

I couldnt care less about game turns; what decides whether I enjoy a playstyle is clicks, more precisely meaningful clicks (repeating the former action is less tedium than performing a different one). I love priests because they have such a high efficieny/click ratio in the midgame.

[archolewa]

I think the key benefit of werewolf forms fast moves isnt just fewer game turns in a high score sense, but rather the faster you are moving, the quicker you traverse the level. The quicker you traverse the level the less time your SP has to go down before you get into another fight, and the more time you have to find and kill things before other things wake up.

[wobbly]

your talking about a class where losing turns is losing SPs.

[Estie]

your talking about a class where losing turns is losing SPs.

Yes, and to prevent that loss i need to change (clicks) and change back again to recast (more clicks). With a normal class, I click once and have full mana.

[wobbly]

Yes, and to prevent that loss i need to change (clicks) and change back again to recast (more clicks). With a normal class, I click once and have full mana.

???

To prevent the loss you kill more things. SPs go up when you hit or kill things.

[Estie]

???

To prevent the loss you kill more things. SPs go up when you hit or kill things.

You cant cast spells in wolf form.

[wobbly]

You cant cast spells in wolf form.

Oh ok that makes sense. I've suggested elsewhere that being able to cast as werewolf would be fun, I think others suggested it would be OP, which is probably true. In my experience being a werewolf is worth not casting, up until the point you have to heal.

[archolewa]

???

To prevent the loss you kill more things. SPs go up when you hit or kill things.

I think it also goes up when you take damage.

[Pete Mack]

The thing is, a pure dive involves avoiding things, not going out of your way to kill them. I had a similar problem with blackguard--detouring to wipe out a bunch of lost orcs and the like.

[Estie]

But other concerns won out over that, mainly wanting to reward players for aggressive, conflict seeking play and reduce the incentive to rest to full HP at every opportunity.

This is counter to everything that is (vanilla) Angband. I feel that if this design approach be pursued, it should be under a differnt tag; i.e. forked into a new variant.

What exactly is your problem witch resting up at every opportunity ?
The usual argument is that rest periods are boring, forcing inactive wait times that nobody likes. But that is of no concern in Angband, because while a rest may last 100s of turns, it only is 1 click, 1 second playtime.

[archolewa]

Its an effort to introduce a different playstyle. It says, "every classs is incentivized to do X. What if there was a class that had incentives to *not* do X? Does that introduce new strategies? Give veterans a new way of playing the game? Does it crash and burn?"

Petsinally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and creating an entire variant for one class that plays differently from the others seems silly. Besides, I don't find the basic avoidance game to be that different from other classes. Regardless of class you still want to kill killable things for loot and experience while avoiding unkillable things. Blackguards just give you some incentive for being a bit strategic about which killable things you kill first.

If anything, Blackguards are better at avoidance than warriors or paladins before you get a Rod of Detection because they have a better detection spell.

[DavidMedley]

What exactly is your problem witch resting up at every opportunity ?

It's not fun.

[mrfy]

It's not fun.

Life is not fun.

But seriously, I tried running a blackguard character again. It's just not my style even though I feel like it should be. I like a combination of melee and distance attacks via ammo or spells. I just can't help resting to regain hit points. I don't care about turn counts or number of key presses or clicks. I just want my hit points and spell points to be max when meeting the next group of monsters.

There are plenty of monsters who should be attacked from afar, with quiver ammo or spells. Those who drain stats or life, for example. This class doesn't do much to prevent those kind of attacks.

And I really don't like not being able to cast spells while transformed. (I understand why that's a limitation, but it constrains the decision to switch into the form.

[Estie]

Its an effort to introduce a different playstyle. It says, "every classs is incentivized to do X. What if there was a class that had incentives to *not* do X? Does that introduce new strategies? Give veterans a new way of playing the game? Does it crash and burn?"

Petsinally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and creating an entire variant for one class that plays differently from the others seems silly. Besides, I don't find the basic avoidance game to be that different from other classes. Regardless of class you still want to kill killable things for loot and experience while avoiding unkillable things. Blackguards just give you some incentive for being a bit strategic about which killable things you kill first.

If anything, Blackguards are better at avoidance than warriors or paladins before you get a Rod of Detection because they have a better detection spell.

It doesnt carsh nor burn. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It has its fans, veterans or newbies. But it is different from what Angabnd has been for decades. If you want an action band, by all means go ahead, but please find your own name for it.

[Estie]

It's not fun.

That made it clear - Now I understand.