Question about classes difficulty balance and techniques against Uniques

[lea2501]

I were playing Moria/Angband for several months now... and now I am playing a "High-Elf" "Mage", was level 38 or so when i killed the Balrog of Moria on dungeon level 49, it was the first time i got that far in the game and it got me thinking... that it was so easy, i was shocked that it almost happened, i don't know if i learned this new strategy with the mage that is to:

1) having ESP, i saw the monster, Unique, Ancient dragon, etc. and put it in a straight long line in a big room or passage.
2) Use "Resistance" and "Mana Channel" from "Magical Defences" book.
3) Use a rod or wand of "Slow monster" on it.
4) Quaff a potion of speed.
5) Alternate between "Explotion" from "Wizard's Tome of Power" and from "Mana Bolt" "Arcane Control"

And that way i was able to slain the Balrog of Moria almost without being damaged, even with some others monsters around, summoned by others and him i think.

And that got me thinking, with a warrior that will be almost insanely difficult, having no "Resistances" magic, and a way to keep monsters far away, i think that the mage its like so easy once you got those spell books and items, what are some equivalent strategy for killing powerful enemies like those Uniques, with a warrior or other classes? i feel that the mage its like an "easy mode" compared to other classes, being able to teleport a short distance with "Phase Door" spell or even the "Teleport Other" and "Teleport Self" spells, that i use also when there's a room with lots of treasures and enemies far beyond my level. In "Moria" game i think you had no spells like "Explotion" and "Mana Bolt", so in Moria killing the Balrog will be like so much more difficult right?

Also, I was playing Necromancer and Warriors builds before, but it was so damn difficult compared to the mage now that i have this spells, it feels that im missing something with other classes, or the game is unbalanced, i tend to think its the first option and i am missing some knowledge about the other classes, so i wanted to ask you all for it.

For example, with my previous Warrior characters, i used a similar strategy with slow for the enemy and speed for me, also Berserk potions. Also for the Necromancer with the "Vampire Strike", but i think its no match for the enemies im facing right now with the mage with all the spells available.

Thank you so much!

EDIT: I just remembered also about the "Banishment" and "Mass Banishment" spells in the 5th book, so, i found a vault, with lots of enemies above my level and i just Mass Banished everyone and take the loot... the same situation with a warrior or any other class, its so difficult in comparison, also nearly ALL the monsters above level 20 or so, you cannot melee because they all remove experience, strength, constitution, etc... how can a warrior counter measure those situations? only teleporting with some staff or scroll as i can think of only... or maybe warriors are so damn powerfull at the same level of my mage, that merelly touching these enemies is enough to kill them?

[Monkey Face]

Mage is definitely considered one of the easier classes in the later part of the game after being difficult in the earlier levels. There are two major obstacles which a mage has to overcome. One is to find the 4th spell book with the unresistable mana bolt spell. The other is to get your constitution high enough so you have enough hit points so you won't get insta-killed. Once you get to that point, it's just a question of getting through the final levels.

Many of the other classes (such as warriors) have a much higher survival rate at the start but then become much tougher later in the game. (All of my wins except one have been with a mage and the one other was with a priest.)

[archolewa]

There are three ways a warrior can counter enemies who drain stats:

1. Teleport them away. Warriors are perfectly capable of using wands and rods of Teleport Other (*Destruct* also works in a pinch).
2. Pepper them with arrows. A good launcher is pretty key to a successful warrior for precisely this reason.
3. Wear gear that sustains your stats. Some gear (especially later in the game) will "sustain" your stats, meaning they can't be drained.

Hold Life protects you against experience drain, though it's not 100% (and not a big deal. One or two levels do not make a big difference for warriors, so drained experience is not a big deal).

Furthermore, when I play warriors I typically avoid vaults (the rooms with powerful monsters and lots of loot) until the very end game. Warriors get most of their loot from killing things. Rogues and mages are usually the characters who raid vaults.

Warriors are also the characters who can do the most damage to a single target in a single round, so yeah with a good endgame weapon warriors can chew through a fair number of enemies (an endgame warrior with a good Mace of Disruption can do 1000 damage to undead for example).

They still have to be careful about picking their battles though. Enemies (like Maia and Balrogs) are very much not worth fighting because they like to summon allies and warriors don't have any area of effect abilities. They also love to dig out zig-zagging anti-summoning corridors to deal with uniques who like to summon.

Honestly, warriors have a pretty strong endgame thanks to their high HP and damage. It's the midgame that they struggle through due to their lack of stealth and detection.

Can't speak to Necromancers, haven't played them yet.

[lea2501]

There are three ways a warrior can counter enemies who drain stats:

1. Teleport them away. Warriors are perfectly capable of using wands and rods of Teleport Other (*Destruct* also works in a pinch).
2. Pepper them with arrows. A good launcher is pretty key to a successful warrior for precisely this reason.
3. Wear gear that sustains your stats. Some gear (especially later in the game) will "sustain" your stats, meaning they can't be drained.

Hold Life protects you against experience drain, though it's not 100% (and not a big deal. One or two levels do not make a big difference for warriors, so drained experience is not a big deal).

Furthermore, when I play warriors I typically avoid vaults (the rooms with powerful monsters and lots of loot) until the very end game. Warriors get most of their loot from killing things. Rogues and mages are usually the characters who raid vaults.

Warriors are also the characters who can do the most damage to a single target in a single round, so yeah with a good endgame weapon warriors can chew through a fair number of enemies (an endgame warrior with a good Mace of Disruption can do 1000 damage to undead for example).

They still have to be careful about picking their battles though. Enemies (like Maia and Balrogs) are very much not worth fighting because they like to summon allies and warriors don't have any area of effect abilities. They also love to dig out zig-zagging anti-summoning corridors to deal with uniques who like to summon.

Honestly, warriors have a pretty strong endgame thanks to their high HP and damage. It's the midgame that they struggle through due to their lack of stealth and detection.

Can't speak to Necromancers, haven't played them yet.

ah, so it will depend of having lots of ways to teleport away for situations until i have the right Resistance in armor or weapon, and also the Hold Life, and other sustain stats so in a couple of attacks, i can kill the enemy and don't get reduced to a level 1 warrior lol.

Thanks!

[Adam]

One more thing warriors need to be aware of: some monsters (like the balrog) do drain staff and wand charges and heal themselves with this. It's easy to avoid this with ranged classes but with warriors I normally just don't carry such things into battle (which has the danger of losing these items).

[Sky]

one thing to keep in mind is that the different techniques players use to kill uniques do not simply depend on your class, but on your equipment as well. Fir instance, there is a big difference in how you approach Arien depending if you do or do not have *Fire.
Do you need to burn potions on this fight?
Is there the possibility that you may need to escape?
Will the unique summon mobs you cannot take?
.. there's probably more.

[lea2501]

One more thing warriors need to be aware of: some monsters (like the balrog) do drain staff and wand charges and heal themselves with this. It's easy to avoid this with ranged classes but with warriors I normally just don't carry such things into battle (which has the danger of losing these items).

So as i understand, its better to have potions as a warrior than to use staffs, wands, and rods then, at least from the mid game, im right?

[archolewa]

So as i understand, its better to have potions as a warrior than to use staffs, wands, and rods then, at least from the mid game, im right?

Not really. There are many things wands and staves can do that potions can't, like Teleport Other or Magic Mapping or Detection, so you're gonna have wands and staves in the endgame. The question is just how you choose to handle enemies who drain charges. I mostly avoid them, personally.

[Monkey Face]

Also, rods are fine. They don't have charges for monsters to drain and heal.

[sffp]

Four rods of TO and you can usually face most situations (including the final battle)

ESP is the best thing in the game.
Once you have it, you can usually avoid the situations you can't handle
Although you should still carry rods of Detection because not everything is detected by ESP

Warriors get massive amounts of hit points and do massive damage in melee pretty easily.


The cute thing about your scenario is that you stayed in LOS of the monster you were fighting. There are monsters/uniques that breath for massive amounts of damage.


A ranger can dig a diaganol tunnel with Stone to Mud straight to a bad baddy, take a step back and still have LOS on the monster and fire arrows down said tunnel without being in the monster's LOS. When the monster closes in, it can phase door hopefully to the other side of the tunnel and fire down the same tunnel as the monster rushes back at you.

It is a thing of beauty - and a lot of fun.

[Pete Mack]

You dont even need the backwards step. STM follows the same LOS code that archery and other projecting spells do. The same works even better as a mage, though you need a lot of wands. With a platform at each end, you can ping-pong back and forth with dimension door. I rarely bother, because it is basically boring.

I personally think DD is more problematic than (mass) banishment. With DD and Maba Storm, there is never a need for banishment (or healing, or anything else except TO abd detection.)

[kineahora]

You dont even need the backwards step. STM follows the same LOS code that archery and other projecting spells do. The same works even better as a mage, though you need a lot of wands. With a platform at each end, you can ping-pong back and forth with dimension door. I rarely bother, because it is basically boring.

I personally think DD is more problematic than (mass) banishment. With DD and Maba Storm, there is never a need for banishment (or healing, or anything else except TO abd detection.)

One of the things I like best about the new Paladins is that single combat can make anti-summoning corridors a minor part of the game, where it had been a massive part of the endgame for me.

The paladin just needs to have a permanent slot for restore mana potions since single combat and 2000 HP healing consume 50 mana per use. I completely LOVE single combat. one of may favorite uses is even if you get "commanded to return" right into a nasty pit or vault you still dont have to rely on teleportation--you can often find a weak monster (especially a nonmoving monster like a Q or a mold) you can do single combat on and then heal up/ restore your mana etc etc while isolated in the combat area with the weak monster, and when you finally kill it you are ready for action/hasted/etc etc.

[ewert]

find a weak monster (especially a nonmoving monster like a Q or a mold) you can do single combat on and then heal up/ restore your mana etc etc while isolated in the combat area with the weak monster, and when you finally kill it you are ready for action/hasted/etc etc.

Damn. Idea stolen, didn't think of that.