Blackguards: 4.2.0 to 4.2.1

[DavidMedley]

Made it to dungeon level 94 with my Blackguard ... It was a good run, and I was using werewolf mode a lot more.

I hope you had fun!

[archolewa]

Having played three or four Blackguards at this point (though I haven't won yet, or even gotten to the endgame), I do have some feedback for the early game. I don't know if this is criticism or analysis (i.e. I don't know if this is a bad thing or not):

Blackguard's early game suuuuuuucks. I's not just that the class is weak at early levels, it's that they're weak in a way that makes the early game incredibly tedious:

Their stealth is as bad as warriors or paladins, so they're going to be stumbling into battles all the time. However, their low blows means their damage output is far below what warriors and paladins can do, simply because it's so variable. So they fight a lot like priests, but they lack the early healing that gives priests their staying power.

Their detection is better than warriors and paladins, but the fact that you need to start a fight before you can use it makes it only *slightly* better in the early game. This plus their low stealth means they can't really pick their battles like a mage or rogue can.

All this means is that I find myself having to spend far more time on the early levels scrounging for gear, experience and consumables than I do for any other class I've played. I just don't have the damage that warriors and paladins do, the healing that priests do, nor the stealth and detection that mages do to support early diving.

In fact, I find myself having to play against type, which is rather lame. My top priority is to get a launcher, and spend the early game pretty much kiting like a ranger or rogue.

Their early game spells also don't do a whole lot to help. I touched on detect fear in the previous paragraph. Berserk is nice for making your damage more reliable, but it also imposes a -10 AC penalty at the only point in the game where 10 AC actually matters, so I often find it does more harm than good. They're not tough enough yet, nor hitting hard enough for Leap into Battle and Whirlwind to be useful.

Now things do get much better at level 20, once Leap into Battle gives you two blows. At that point, I find I can start playing a Blackguard like a Blackguard. Still pretty rough though, especially if the RNG doesn't give me a decent weapon.

Now, I don't have a problem with Blackguards having a weak early game. It's actually a nice change of pace from Paladin and Warrior. I just would like there to be some way to make it less of a slog.

I think the solution (assuming that the David and Nick agree it's a problem) is to tweak the Blackguard's early spells a bit to make up for their early weaknesses. For example, if their Berserk spell granted them a bonus to hit and damage, that could go a long way to giving them divable damage output. Less than 2 blows is a lot less painful if you can reliably one shot monsters.

Similarly if Leap into Battle and Whirlwind were either delayed until the Blackguard is tougher, or *starts* with two blows, they would be much more useful. Honestly though I'm not really a big fan of Leap into Blows and Whirlwind starting with two blows, because the level 20 spike in power is a lot of fun. I get really excited when I hit level 20, and I don't want to lose that. Especially since most classes in Angband don't really have power tiers tied to explicit levels.

Another option would be to include a low level spell that granted some flat damage reduction. Flat damage reduction is less important in the mid to late game when you start hitting breathers, and you have enough HP to absorb small hits, but in the early game it would make a BIG difference.

[DavidMedley]

Read this and will mull it. I agree that Berserk Strength doesn't do much for damage output, but it does help a lot with hit percentage. This is a bit weird for something called "Berserk Strength" but I was reluctant to change it too much. Also, a plus to damage helps someone with many blows, so I don't think that's the right thing. +2 STR might work a lot better.

How much INT are you starting with? Less than 13 is a handicap for casting. I know a lot of players like to ignore the magic stat for half-casters at birth, but I don't think they should expect great spell casting ability in that case.

[archolewa]

I usee the default point buy, and have mostly played Dunadan and High Elf. The spells themselves are pretty reliable, I just find they often don't do much at low levels to improve damage output.

+2 strength would be an effective early game buff to Berserk Strength. Another option is to give some amount if temporary HP. Would help make you a lot tougher in thr early game, but falls off mid and late game.

Another possibility would be to give Blackguards a spell that guarantees they hit, but eeduces the damage done based on hit chance. So if you have a 75% chance to hit, you only do 75% of your damage. Would allow you to smooth out the damage spikes a little. Would also be useful with spells like Maiming Strike. Dont know how easy this would be to code.

[DavidMedley]

I doubt we'll move away from spikey damage.

[archolewa]

That's fine. Fundamentally, I think my gripe is that low level Blackguards kind of have to play against type. I'm impatient and want to play my crazy berserker nowwwww x'(

So if there was a way give Blackguards just a little bit more resilience or damage in the early game, that would be awesome.

But if not, that's fine. The class is still a lot of fun and very unique.

[DavidMedley]

I usee the default point buy, and have mostly played Dunadan and High Elf. The spells themselves are pretty reliable, I just find they often don't do much at low levels to improve damage output.

Default point buy spends 4 of 20 points for 1 point of Dex, which I think is always a mistake unless that increases your blows (at 17, 18/20, and 18/40) and even then I'm very loath to do it. A Dunadan BG can get back 7 character points by going to DEX 17 (or 6 pts at 18). Spend at least one of those to get INT to 13 and you'll have 1 more SP from levels 1-10 and 2 more from 11-20. Totally worth that 1 point investment.

Try to end your battles with enough SP to cast the cheap but critical spells you will soon need. Getting into this habit is critical, but a bit anti-thematic and that vexed me during the design process. Maybe I'll figure out a good way to get around that in the future, but for now it remains a key skill. Save enough to detect or leap or whatever else you anticipate needing. DON'T REST unless you have near zero SP anyway. Carry !CLT or =Open Wounds (now available in the Magic Shop) for maximum carnage per turn.

[DavidMedley]

their low blows means their damage output is far below what warriors and paladins can do, simply because it's so variable.

Looking at Dunadan Paladin vs BG with default birth points and equipment:

BLOWS   DMG/RND  CHARACTER
2.3     12.3     Pally with Gauche
1.6     13.9     BG with Tulwar

Doesn't look so bad to me. Bless gives +10 to-hit, Bers gives +75 melee skill which is roughly as good as +25 to-hit in melee (downsides to Bers, obviously).

I worked hard to get BGs to play to type. That's basically the only way I've ever played them, occasional fortuitous item find aside. It's possible that playing them like very bad Rogues is still the optimal strategy -- maybe we'll have a competition and find out -- but I know that playing them as lovers of melee combat is fun and at least reasonably effective.

[archolewa]

I never even considered using a ring of open wounds to improve SP gain. Ill have to try that.

And my difficulties with the damage output is more how variable it is. Blackguards in the early game are very feast or famine. On paper they are similar, but whiffing once with the Blackguard hurts a lot more than with the paladin.

[archolewa]

I might also have to try with the Oposband style weapon damage. That might end up being a buff for Blackguard since it puts less emphasis on blows.

[DavidMedley]

I never even considered using a ring of open wounds to improve SP gain.

It recovers 40 HP when activated and recharges pretty fast.

[DavidMedley]

I might also have to try with the Oposband style weapon damage. That might end up being a buff for Blackguard since it puts less emphasis on blows.

There's a compatibility issue with the BG spells, tho, that we haven't worked out yet: The melee blows spells aren't very effective at dealing damage.

[Pete Mack]

@David--
Sure, the BG starting character is as strong as a paladin. But as soon as there is +dam on the lighter weapon, it will start going ahead. Even a ring of reckless attacks will nearly double that pally's damage.

[archolewa]

@David--
Sure, the BG starting character is as strong as a paladin. But as soon as there is +dam on the lighter weapon, it will start going ahead. Even a ring of reckless attacks will nearly double that pally's damage.

I think this does a great job of clarifying the difficulties I'm having with Blackguard's early game. Because the game is balanced around multiple blows, the Blackguard gains offensive capabilities much more slowly than the paladin or warrior, and while the spells are fun and interesting, they don't quite make up the difference. This means combat takes longer, which means there are more opportunities for things to go wrong, and I burn through more consumables. I almost never get gorged on CLW, but I find that happening all the time with my Blackguard, to the point that I will rest in town until I'm down to 60% satiation, and take a few rations with me when I go down.

I fear orc uniques while playing a Blackguard in a way I don't really with the Paladin or Warrior.

I want to emphasize that I love the idea of the Blackguard, and I appreciate all the work
that's being put into this class. We're just going against the grain of the game here, and I'm not sure we've quite gotten there yet.

Or I'm playing the Blackguard wrong. I'll have to try with a ring of open wounds as a source of renewable healing, and see if that makes a difference.

Also, does the incompatibility with the alternate damage style affect just the blows accompanied by spells like Leap Into Battle and Whirlwind, or does it also affect the extra blows you get from Werewolf? Because if it's just the former, I might try it anyway. Except for a brief period in the early game, I never use those spells for the damage (in fact, I rarely use Whirlwind at all).

[Hounded]

Playing a Dunedain BG and up to lvl 37 using OA damage. Early game was delicate but then had to really slog through for equipment. The RNG gave me 3 low dam. Gondolins and two branded weapons for the longest time. A major saving grace was tactical use of the Leap Into Battle exploit.

Once I finally found a decent artifact weapon I started dropping like a stone and its become a hoot. What I've really appreciated is that heavy weapons I never touched before due to low attack numbers suddenly have competitive damage. Kind of gratifying when a Thanc dagger gets tossed in favour of a Trident of Venom.