Angband 4.2.0

[DavidMedley]

Aglarang. Glaive of Pain. There are others.

Granted. Am I alone, then, in thinking PfE has a lot more utility than Smite Evil?

[wobbly]

While we're on Paladin, what about Smite Evil? I may not understand it completely, but it seems completely useless. Get it in 4th holy book (Paly's 3rd) and can cast at CL 25 for 20 mana. Gives your weapon a temporary x2 mult against evil, right? But this is not cumulative with any brands? I can't picture a Paladin ever having a weapon at CL 25 that doesn't x2 already. My CL31 Paladin has Prot from Evil on *always* but never Smite Evil.

If I'm under-selling it, let me know.

Aglarang. Glaive of Pain. There are others.

[Derakon]

when it says Brands, it actually means any multiplier, right? So Extra Blow would be classed as a brand.

No. Brands and slays multiply the damage dealt by your damage dice on a per-blow basis when used against a monster that is susceptible to the brand/slay. You only get one multiplier this way; whichever one deals the most damage. So for example, a Dracolich (evil undead dragon) hit by a weapon with Slay Evil (x2), Slay Undead (x3), a firebrand (x3), and *Slay* Dragon (x5) would get an x5 multiplier.

Extra Blows just straight-up make you attack more, and therefore stack with brands/slays.

[DavidMedley]

not so much that I can declare a priori that it's useless.

Well, I'm overstating it a bit in context of Protection from Evil being called "pretty much useless." I'd take PfE for sure over Smite Evil.

[Sky]

when it says Brands, it actually means any multiplier, right? So Extra Blow would be classed as a brand.

[Derakon]

Brands and slays never stack; they'd be ridiculously overpowered if they did. The utility of Smite Evil depends on whether you want to use a weapon that has big dice but doesn't have useful brands/slays. That's pretty niche but not so much that I can declare a priori that it's useless.

[DavidMedley]

Smite Evil

While we're on Paladin, what about Smite Evil? I may not understand it completely, but it seems completely useless. Get it in 4th holy book (Paly's 3rd) and can cast at CL 25 for 20 mana. Gives your weapon a temporary x2 mult against evil, right? But this is not cumulative with any brands? I can't picture a Paladin ever having a weapon at CL 25 that doesn't x2 already. My CL31 Paladin has Prot from Evil on *always* but never Smite Evil.

If I'm under-selling it, let me know.

[archolewa]

I agree that the "earlyish" game is the place where this prayer is useful. But I wouldn't dismiss it quite so flippantly. Personally, I find the prayer very very useful for priests struggling to get down to stat gain depths.

True, and I used it quite a bit in my 4.1 priest win, but it's just taking up space in the *paladin* spell list, which is what my criticism was aimed at.

I think leaving it as-is for priests is fine. But paladins should either have it replaced with something else (like temporary armor resistance), or given some sort of paladin-only tweak. I like Derakon's mobile-glyph of warding idea. Thematically, the paladin could be inscribing the glyph on his shield.

[bron]

About the only scenario in which I can conceive of Protection from Evil being helpful is when fighting an orc unique in the earlyish game.

I agree that the "earlyish" game is the place where this prayer is useful. But I wouldn't dismiss it quite so flippantly. Personally, I find the prayer very very useful for priests struggling to get down to stat gain depths. OOD is very powerful, but you don't yet have the SP to use it too much, and you're still only getting one blow with your melee weapon. And you'll encounter a pack of Trolls, or a tribe of Uruks, or an Orc unique, almost every level from DL15 - DL30. PFE makes a world of difference.

To use a totally unfair and invalid comparison, "Magic Missile" is only really useful in the early game, but Mages would never make it to the later game without it.

[Pete Mack]

@Derakon--
Yep, it was always useless as a paladin spell, except for chars with bad melee. But for priests, it makes a real difference: with PfE and weak healing spells, you can take on huge mobs of trolls with a 1-blow character.

[Derakon]

Really the fundamental issue with the spell as-is is that it nullifies the threat from monsters that you already don't care about, while doing nothing to protect you from monsters that you do care about. About the only scenario in which I can conceive of Protection from Evil being helpful is when fighting an orc unique in the earlyish game. Uruks are level 16 but not ignorable when you're level 17, so having them whiff some attacks could stretch your resources some.

But once you're past dlvl20 or so, monster level very quickly outstrips player level, which removes any remaining utility from the current implementation of the spell.

[DavidMedley]

Some Example Repel Chances

Did a quick work-up in my Angband spreadsheet. I think the "Cur"rent chance to repel is correct, but I could be wrong. Took 4 enemies at 3 different character levels - 1/2 level, same level, same +1, and double level. I put in my 2 suggested alternatives, but that's really off the top of my head and there may be much better ways to approach it.

Chance to Repel

CL	ML	Cur	CL/(CL+ML)	CL/(CL+2*ML)
15	8	64%	65%	48%
15	15	64%	50%	33%
15	16	0%	48%	32%
15	30	0%	33%	20%

30	15	79%	67%	50%
30	30	79%	50%	33%
30	31	0%	49%	33%
30	60	0%	33%	20%

50	25	99%	67%	50%
50	50	99%	50%	33%
50	51	0%	50%	33%
50	100	0%	33%	20%

Link to my shared spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nAVk2AodMHloqhLBzZm7p_s4mne3My4Kyo9wODJWAFQ/edit?usp=sharing

[DavidMedley]

Looking at randart0 I see there's actually a 1 in 100 chance that a monster can attack you at CL 50. Anyway...

[DavidMedley]

What if Protection from Evil granted a damage reduction against evil

I think the current system is thematic and interesting. But it does need to be a continuum, as you said.

[DavidMedley]

if (monster_is_evil(mon) && p->lev >= rlev &&

				    randint0(100) + p->lev > 50) {

Well, there's your problem. It's so all-or-nothing. We all knew that if we've used PfE, but seeing it in the code is still kind of shocking. At level 50 it's literally either 100% protection or 0%, if I'm reading this right.