"Nick is going to butcher the game"

[tangar]

Cryo-freeze is bad. But it's not the case which we got in Angband right now:

Gameplay mechanics should evolve. Lore should stay the same. D&D monsters/races are part of Angband lore and history. They are part of the game world.

Recently there was a post on reddit, wanna quote my tiny reply there:

There is big difference between 'gameplay' and 'lore' changes. Gameplay changes could make game better, rebalancing the game, implementing new interesting gameplay mechanics.

But the thing in current Angband changes is: lore 'sweeping'. Maintainer decided to remove DnD influence from Angband's lore, making it closer to pure-Tolkien - without kobolds, dark elves, Medusa etc. For 30 years it was mixed universe, people get used to it and they love it. No one asked to make such changes - it's not balance/gameplay, but lore changes.

As Xainiax said in reddit topic:

Lore is almost impossible to change in any fictional setting, people like what they know about a world to continue to be true.

Yes! It is. And situation in Angband is exactly about changing fictional setting. It's like rewriting storyline in your favorite book.

Why not just create Angband 2? Leave vanilla as it is and create 'new' game, with new lore. Because after this major lore changes it looks like a new game to me. Like Moria vs Angband.

[Carnivean]

would u want ur good friend to die just so he never changed?

Would you cryo-freeze your good friend so that they never changed?

[Nick]

I remember writing this post (1993) when it was released :

https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=rec.games.moria/Dl7J9mEBDWg/utwKyG387l4J

(which sounds a bit dated now)

Thanks Geoff, that was a great read. Really captures the excitement of the new game

[GeoffHill]

Well, at least after all this time, the fact that people still want to argue about all of this means something is both right and important about the game itself. I am not sure that will be lost if it evolves further.

I remember writing this post (1993) when it was released :

https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=rec.games.moria/Dl7J9mEBDWg/utwKyG387l4J

(which sounds a bit dated now)

As you will see from this a lot of this was being made up as we went along, so if years of play and feedback mean that it is time for an overhaul then I am in favour.

Perhaps, however, it might be wise to introduce this in stages to see what the consensus is.

Cheers,

Geoff Hill (yes, that one)

[mrfy]

would u want ur good friend to die just so he never changed?

No, I accept that change is going to happen because that's life. Some people change in good ways, other in bad ways. If the change is too bad, then cut off contact and remember when they were a good friend, with a bit of sadness of course.

[dos350]

would u want ur good friend to die just so he never changed?

[Mondkalb]

ever had a product u used to like, say a biscuit or soda, item on menu at resteraunt, anything u can think of really~ change ~ now u dont like that product, even tho its called the same thing by the same company (new & improved), u have to find something else to fill the void of what once was,

whatever reason it may hav changed for doesnt matter to the upset ex user

Yeah, but the difference is, you can still download and play the version of Angband you like, whereas you usually can't buy the good old times product anymore.

[dos350]

ever had a product u used to like, say a biscuit or soda, item on menu at resteraunt, anything u can think of really~ change ~ now u dont like that product, even tho its called the same thing by the same company (new & improved), u have to find something else to fill the void of what once was,

whatever reason it may hav changed for doesnt matter to the upset ex user

[takkaria]

That's more than I thought! Neat stat.

However, when I said 'community,' I meant the number of people who regularly and actively play the game and like, talk about it.

Sure. I just thought it was an interesting data point. It was as high as 700 a month last year for a few months. Used to be higher.

The forum software reckons there are 207 active members here too, even if a lot of them don't post.

[debo]

Some 300 people download the game each month.

That's more than I thought! Neat stat.

However, when I said 'community,' I meant the number of people who regularly and actively play the game and like, talk about it.

[olivertheorem]

imagine logging into diablo 2 and half the classes had name change and many skills removed and or completely changed, monsters had name and ability changes and generally started being in the star wars universe instead of diablo, despite many dedicated players learning, enjoying and talking about it for the last 20 years, its all invalidated!

now thats not diablo2 its a mod

This analogy only works if the changes to Angband were being made without notice to the community, and if you had no choice but to update the version (like it happened in the background or something). In Angband, Nick is being as upfront as humanly possible about what is coming, and you do have the choice not to download the new version. The comparison you're trying to make just isn't there.

Again, I empathize with those who think Angband is largely fine just where it is. That is a valid opinion. But you're not going to convince people to change their mind with over the top analogies such as this.

[dos350]

over the last 20years that 300 a month added lot, not to mention people who shared the game offline,

[kandrc]

Some 300 people download the game each month.

271 of those are debo.

[takkaria]

I think an important variable in this problem is the size of the "Angband community." It's pretty darn small. Even if we irritate half the community with a change that's, what? Maybe 30 people? That falls pretty firmly under "who cares" territory for me.

Some 300 people download the game each month.

[Nick]

Nick, hurry up and get these changes into master. I haven't wanted to play V in forever, and now I'm curious.

They're in master already. Get 'em while they're hot.