Water in Angband

[tangar]

One of the reasons my proposal was so simple is explicitly to punt on these kinds of simulationist questions. There is a lot of complexity that you could introduce in terms of rules, but my gut instinct is that having that level of hand-coded detail doesn't actually add much to the gameplay, and it makes the system more complex and bug-prone.

You are too serious This simulationist questions (about lava and water) was for fun. And answer to it was 'rhetorical'.

Of course game should be relatevely 'simple'. And the main reason there - complexity (I'll say kinda impossibility) to code interaction between too much objects.

Tangar: regarding surprising the player, certainly the game should have the scope to surprise the player through unforeseen combinations of game elements. But each individual element should have straightforward mechanics that the player can readily understand. For example, if sufficiently strong firebreath could convert water into steam, which dealt immense damage as the player was broiled in their armor...that's surprising in a bad way, both because weaker firebreath didn't create steam and because the steam is so deadly.

This sounds ridiculous (at least at current level of technologies and gameplay design).. As I said - water and lava was just funny talk.

But now back to serious stuff. I see some people like the idea of -5 speed penalty. What would become if this would be added:

Players simply wouldn't ever step in the water. Water isn't endgame terrain - it would appear everywhere and actully more logical to have more water at shallow depths (as low depths got lava onces, so water should be there less often). So new characters who come to the water and got -5 speed.. They would look at it like at lava and would just avoid.

Water should be an alternative terrain, which wouldn't frighten players too much. I very recommend to look into 'shallow'/'deep' water concept as it works really marvelous in TomeNET (and it's kinda 'real-time angband', more hardcore in different ways; but even there water do not reduce !!-5!!! speed). Players do not fear waterin TomeNET too much, but sometimes you could meet there Water Hounds or Silent Watcher or other dangerous stuff which could sometimes be harsh. So you have to think and make decision (it's what roguelike games are - give a choice) - to go this way over the water or to try to find another way.

Water should be an alternative; provide certain pros/cons; not to be a another 'lava' tile with blue color.

[bio_hazard]

My preference would be to start with "small streams and pools".

-no more than 3 tiles wide
-no risk of drowning, always passable by @
-no effect on lights
-no new monsters, but maybe new traps
-Slow (-5) and combat penalties for @
-Same penalties for most non-flying monsters
**impassable by some monsters (maybe some lesser undead and demons, reptiles), blocks tracking for some monsters
-can't rest

I think this would add a little more texture to the dungeon, and make for a few new tactical opportunities (e.g. easier to escape, maybe to fight monsters when you are on the shore and they are standing in water), without going too crazy. Also, they'll be small enough in scope that players can cross them in just a couple of turns. Angband isn't DCSS or Dwarf Fortress so I don't think we need to figure out steam/ice/electrical conductivity etc.

[wobbly]

Yeah I think something simple mechanically & rare could be good. See those special lava rooms that pop up? They break the constant monotiny of Vs otherwise dry aesthetic. I don't think -5 spd is too nasty if it's clear. That's less then shriekers, haste or slow.

[Grotug]

I would also like to join the chorus in support of Derakon's water proposal. I think it strikes the perfect balance of adding realism/immersion, a thematic element, as well as interesting gameplay, while remaining simple enough to not wind up being confusing or annoying. I do not think -5 is too big a penalty. Seems just right. Also, I think implementing water in the dungeon is completely appropriate for vanilla. It does need be handled delicately, though, and keeping its implementation as simple and straightforward as possible I think is the key for it to be "thematically" fitting for Vanilla; as interacting with the environment in V is, overall, simple and straightforward.

It also might be fun if a mage could use a pool of water to create a powerful attack spell the way Arwen does to thwart the Nazgul shortly before arriving at Rivendell with Frodo in the movies. The spell simply would not be possible without at least 20 connected tiles of water available to the Mage. (You need a sufficient body of water to create the spell).

Arguments for adding water:

• it adds depth, immersion and atmosphere to the game
• it adds new tactical situations (some monsters unaffected, some unable to enter the water, some move slower if they leave)
• It offers new space for new monsters, especially the very dungeon appropriate Watcher in the Water. As Gandalf says of it "Something has crept or been driven out of the dark water under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world." A possible non-unique monster:razorback catfish)

Arguments for not adding water:

• it complicates gameplay and is annoying to deal with.
• It is too cumbersome to implement compellingly within the super-simple top down graphical interspace that is Angband

Personally I feel the pros outweigh the negatives. But maybe there are other negatives I am not articulating.

Since Nick is not terribly moved to add water, I might suggest implementing it in very limited form (ie. water shows up sparingly; and no giant lakes; just the occasional pool where smeagol might be found slinking about).Maybe have it only show up in cavern levels. With only one (max two) pools on such a level, and small, like maybe a small pool at the edge of an area, easy to circumnavigate.

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You can go after the scroll, but the Watcher in the Water might surprise you.

[Sky]

Would this be affected by Feather Falling or similar?

My first thought is that games that have Levitation and such deal with water rather early on, as those are pretty common abilities, like Free Action.
In that case adding water would be something making the early game harder but have no effect later on. Early game Angband doesnt need any more difficulty, but rather if anything more late-game difficulty.

[fph]

Another possibility here is water just can't be crossed by the player.

That would make sense, but then it would be strange that a high-level player can cross lava but not water.

[tangar]

Nick, it's great to see how you 'observing' & 'scouting' at different 'battlefields' I'm learning a lot from how you look at things, trying to be unaffected and to look from the point of view of the game itself, impersonal; and at the same time being open to community. Really cool approach for maintaining the project. Respect!

// sorry for offtopic

[Nick]

Another possibility here is water just can't be crossed by the player.

At the moment I'm kind of leaning toward not introducing it at all; it is an interesting discussion, though. And maybe someone will come up with a killer reason for it that I won't be able to ignore.

[NightLizard]

I also really like Derakon's suggestion: slowing unless flying, some monsters can't walk on it. Logical, interesting and not annoying.

[Adam]

Water in Angband

It's too harsh.. -5 speed is death sentence, because speed influence not only for moving, but to performing actions and attacking monsters.

If you walk in 3' deep water you lase half of your base speed - i find that fair. If you do this against archers, breathers or casters... well, you learn not to do it next time. Against melee opponents it may be an escape as they also lose speed or may even not be able to enter the water.
Races could get different penalty for walking in water, depending on their height. Hobbits/dwarves suffer much more than half trolls.
You can make fire based spells have a higher failure rate and do less damage but that probably does not fit into the game mechanics well and personally i would not do it (but logically if you try to burn a swimming snake with fireball it's not that effective).

In general water would be interesting to see and could add more options. But i don't miss it currently.

[Derakon]

Of course, there is the question of what happens when water and lava meet.

One of the reasons my proposal was so simple is explicitly to punt on these kinds of simulationist questions. There is a lot of complexity that you could introduce in terms of rules, but my gut instinct is that having that level of hand-coded detail doesn't actually add much to the gameplay, and it makes the system more complex and bug-prone.

(You can avoid even having the question if water and lava simply never generate on the same level)

Tangar: regarding surprising the player, certainly the game should have the scope to surprise the player through unforeseen combinations of game elements. But each individual element should have straightforward mechanics that the player can readily understand. For example, if sufficiently strong firebreath could convert water into steam, which dealt immense damage as the player was broiled in their armor...that's surprising in a bad way, both because weaker firebreath didn't create steam and because the steam is so deadly. But if you're exploring a dungeon and run into a situation where there's a river with some Fire Hounds on the other side, that's surprising in a good way. You have a novel challenge to deal with that you couldn't have had without the new mechanic, and it's clear how the various elements interact.

[tangar]

Of course, there is the question of what happens when water and lava meet.

Water should evaporate and lava would become 'cold' to form a rock - passable rubble or a wall also could depend - is it shallow water/lave (lava depth matters!)

Also it's great thing to be able to 'freeze' water (with spells or breath of powerful frosty mobs)

[Antoine]

Of course, there is the question of what happens when water and lava meet.

I don't think water should be a perfect defense against powerful fiery monsters (like big dragons). I'd like to see them either able to fly over the water, or dry it up, or just wade on in.

Water should also be generatable:
- by monster water spells like the Mystic's
- by a player spell 'create water'
- by watery or icy creatures leaving a trail behind them
- when a water elemental is killed (sploosh)

Consider adding 'thirst' to the game alongside 'hunger'.

A.

[Antoine]

I feel it's pretty weird to have lava and _not_ water.

A.

[Nick]

Incidentally I'm still unsure what passable rubble actually does (apart from blocking LOS).

That's about it