Water in Angband

[tangar]

If it gets done, please do not add item destruction/corrosion with it for more 'realism'!

Whats the problem with that? If there would be quite rare event when one of your scrolls would be destroyed? It's totally alright experience, I've played with it in TomeNET and it's ok.

The only important thing - not to make it too harsh.

In RNG we trust (tm)

[Narry]

I'm not a huge fan of water tiles in roguelikes in general, although it's hard to criticize here beforehand. Before I know how it is going to be done, that is. For my part, adding water will be tolerated but probably not appreciated. If its gonna be always-avoid-type of terrain like it is in ADOM, Nethack, Brogue and DCSS, I'm just going to walk, teleport or phase out of there and ignore it, if it's humanly possible.

If it gets done, please do not add item destruction/corrosion with it for more 'realism'!

I'm with Sphara concerning this issue.

[Pete Mack]

Heh, I knew you'd like that.

You're a bad man, Pete

[Nick]

I would put a secret -1 to -10 speed penalty on water cells that you discover only hybrid stepping on it. It should also affect melee, archery, and AC. If the effect is 6 or more, you can't use a longbow.

You're a bad man, Pete

[Pete Mack]

I would put a secret -1 to -10 speed penalty on water cells that you discover only hybrid stepping on it. It should also affect melee, archery, and AC. If the effect is 6 or more, you can't use a longbow.

[Philip]

-5 speed is really not such a big deal, especially whey you can almost guarantee that you will get rid of the penalty by reading a scroll of phase door, which are extremely cheap and are dropped by novice rogues, the one novice adventurer literally any character can probably kill. -5 speed is "try not to fight while under this effect" and "you will not be able to run away on foot" level stuff even if it doesn't apply to monsters. It is a minor inconvenience. Newer players might not appreciate the value of positioning yet, and so they might get stuck in a pool of water and die. That is good, because they will then learn that getting stuck in a bad spot (for example, a pool of water) will get them killed.

The consequence of a moderate debuff (like -5 speed) is that players will avoid spending time in water, especially when monsters are around. This is good. If you believe in realism then surely you must understand that being in the water is not good for fighting. If you don't believe in realism then there is little to no value in having a water terrain that doesn't meaningfully affect the player.

[fph]

Does the game already support splitting movement and attack speed? Maybe water could slow down movement but not attack. I'm not sure how it would work mechanically though --- if monsters can double-attack you while you are moving it's not too much of a difference.

[tangar]

Let's be clear, -5 speed is not -5 X speed, it is half speed if player is moving at normal speed, and the penalty is less the more hasted the player. -5 to a +30 speed @ in the endgame is nearly nothing. Half speed for a normal, unhasted @ seems perfectly appropriate to me.

Yes, and I speak not about endgame. Water wouldn't influence much enggame characters, as I noted already:

1) You won't meet much lava at low lvls. And you would meet water at low lvls. This aspect should be balanced for new characters
2) Lava isn't too harsh if we would compare it to -speed. You drink cheap resist heat potion and cross lava.. But -5 speed in the beginning of the game, when speed potions is much harder to get than res heat - it's a problem if you meet any mediocre monster.

So water should be discussed at perspective - how it would influence _new player experience_ for newborn/middle-lvl characters. And for new chars -5 speed is quite a lot (no matter - would it be applied to character himself or at monster, which was lurked to the water). In first case - players would avoid water as much as the could; at second - players would harass water to lurk there mobs.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Then game would become 'lets lurk monsters to the water'. Every tile of water would become as main place of interest for the battle and player would 'dance' around it to bring mobs there. Water should be less 'important' in terms of tactics. Players are too 'munchkinish' and would harrass this heavely.

Let's be clear, -5 speed is not -5 X speed, it is half speed if player is moving at normal speed, and the penalty is less the more hasted the player. -5 to a +30 speed @ in the endgame is nearly nothing. Half speed for a normal, unhasted @ seems perfectly appropriate to me.

Water should slow monsters not native to it or that can't levitate over it. Perhaps it should haste monsters a bit that are native to water. (There's another monster idea for Nick's current monster redux). The fact that luring monsters to water could become a tactic is a fabulous addition. Lava and passable rubble both introduced additional tactical possibilities. I see no reason for water not to do the same.

[tangar]

Sorry, but if -5 speed affects the monsters as well, why is it such a big problem?.

Then game would become 'lets lurk monsters to the water'. Every tile of water would become as main place of interest for the battle and player would 'dance' around it to bring mobs there. Water should be less 'important' in terms of tactics. Players are too 'munchkinish' and would harrass this heavely.

[Adam]

But -5 speed in the beginning of the game, when speed potions is much harder to get than res heat - it's a problem if you meet any mediocre monster.

Sorry, but if -5 speed affects the monsters as well, why is it such a big problem? You are doomed if you are standing in the water while monsters with ranged attack don't. That's clear. But it's true also in the other direction... and @ usually does have ranged attack and players should be smart enough to make advantage of such situations.
I see water as a way to escape from certain monsters (who can't follow), or a way to slow others as they approach you.
I'm generally not thinking water as something which covers half the dungeon generally, but smaller pools (20x20), rivers (5-10 wide). Though i'm also not against whole water levels if there is something interesting about them (greater chance of finding potions or whatever).

[tangar]

And the choice under the -5 speed regime would be: is it worth eating the speed penalty to take the direct route to where I want to go? It's a "soft barrier": you can cross it if you want, but you're taking on extra risk if you do so when there are monsters around. The tricky bit will be balancing the placement and quantity of water such that this is a difficult choice. If the water is 10 tiles across, then you probably won't want to cross it to reach monsters on the other side, if they have ranged attacks. If it's 3 tiles across, then you might!

Derakon, I suppose we are speaking about water in different terms/forms. I look at the water from TomeNET point of view: it's quite big pools and undeground rivers; sometimes it could be tiny spots like 10x10 tiles, but sometimes it could be like 1/4 or half of lvl under water. For such big water areas -5 speed is VERY big penalty.

But if we are speaking about tiny pools or spots which block corridors like rubble, then -5 speed is nothing. The question - which water Nick is planning to add? Barriers or big spots. Depending of this we could continue brainstorm.

Lava is a harder barrier, in that you take extra damage regardless of when you cross.

1) You won't meet much lava at low lvls. And you would meet water at low lvls. This aspect should be balanced for new characters
2) Lava isn't too harsh if we would compare it to -speed. You drink cheap resist heat potion and cross lava.. But -5 speed in the beginning of the game, when speed potions is much harder to get than res heat - it's a problem if you meet any mediocre monster.

Honestly my biggest concern with -5 speed isn't the effect it'd have when applied to the player: it's the effect when applied to monsters. I foresee the player trying to lure monsters to rivers so that the player can stand on the banks and get a free relative +5 speed modifier. We'd want to be certain to make the AI smart enough to not stand in water if there's an alternative (or unless the monster isn't affected by water).

I overall not fun of '-speed' idea, but I think it's ok for tiny water spots; but making monsters to affected it too - it's a mistake. Sorry, but it's extra complexity which you worned about just a few post above. It's alright to make some monsters not able to cross 'deep' water (if there would be deep/shallow types); or some monsters could spawn and stay only in the water (but give them certain 'distance' attacks so you can't cheat); but implementing "tactical" combat based at silly attempts to lure monster to the edge of water while you staying on surface - it's abusing of AI and makes game looks stupid.

So if water would be small and -speed would be applied on @ - monsters shouldn't be affected by it.

[Derakon]

Water should be an alternative terrain, which wouldn't frighten players too much. I very recommend to look into 'shallow'/'deep' water concept as it works really marvelous in TomeNET (and it's kinda 'real-time angband', more hardcore in different ways; but even there water do not reduce !!-5!!! speed). Players do not fear waterin TomeNET too much, but sometimes you could meet there Water Hounds or Silent Watcher or other dangerous stuff which could sometimes be harsh. So you have to think and make decision (it's what roguelike games are - give a choice) - to go this way over the water or to try to find another way.

And the choice under the -5 speed regime would be: is it worth eating the speed penalty to take the direct route to where I want to go? It's a "soft barrier": you can cross it if you want, but you're taking on extra risk if you do so when there are monsters around. The tricky bit will be balancing the placement and quantity of water such that this is a difficult choice. If the water is 10 tiles across, then you probably won't want to cross it to reach monsters on the other side, if they have ranged attacks. If it's 3 tiles across, then you might!

Lava is a harder barrier, in that you take extra damage regardless of when you cross.

Honestly my biggest concern with -5 speed isn't the effect it'd have when applied to the player: it's the effect when applied to monsters. I foresee the player trying to lure monsters to rivers so that the player can stand on the banks and get a free relative +5 speed modifier. We'd want to be certain to make the AI smart enough to not stand in water if there's an alternative (or unless the monster isn't affected by water).

[wobbly]

Well more important then the "what happens when water meets lava" question is the "How does this effect fire breathers big enough to create lava" question.

[Philip]

For what it's worth, in Tolkien, water is for sure something you do not want to spend time in. Isildur dies (despite having the ring, mind you) because he's stuck in the water and is easy prey for archers on the banks. An entire episode of the Hobbit revolves around trying to get a large amount of people over a river without entering the water at any point. Even being close to water can be dangerous, since strange stuff lurks in the water. When people do travel using the water it is a desperation play.

I don't think we should encourage players to go swimming, let alone to actually fight stuff while they are underwater. Water, if implemented, should be an obstacle, not a theme/aesthetic thing. One that you can possibly cross, but you should be careful, and it might not go very well. If anything, -5 speed feels a bit generous. Perhaps for movement speed it is reasonable, but for combat speed it seems like not enough of a deterrent. Personally, I think it should be possible for water-themed monsters to be hiding in the water (possibly visible to detection), but I don't think there are any existing mechanics that could be adapted into that. The only benefit I would afford to swimming would be that your smell trail would end wherever you entered the water and only restart when you leave.

I agree that going into simulationist nonsense would hurt the game. Obscure and unpredictable rules turn the game into Nethack, and Nethack might be fun but there is a reason I don't play it. The answer to what should happen when water and lava meet is nothing. If you want an explanation, view it as the water and the lava forming a rocky barrier between them and then not interacting any more, and the rocky barrier isn't imposing enough to be rubble.