Summoning

[Huqhox]

Monster summoning is one of those things that crops up from time to time. Some people thing summoners should only summon lower level monsters (because how could they order a higher level monster to come and fight), while the ability to summon higher level monsters is entirely justified by it being seen as a 'call for help'.

Recent discussions around how Ringwraiths summon, and now the changes in the latest feature/monster branch where some summoned monsters vanish when the summoner is killed and the concept of bodyguards lead me to thinking: Why do we have (essentially) one summon mechanic. Why not have more? This would make monsters more interesting and different as well as being useful from a thematic point of view.

So you could have some different ones like (names are pretty random)

Summon minions: Summons only lesser monsters which act like bodyguards
Summon assistance: As current summon, so may attract higher level monsters
Conjure monster: Summoned monsters (usually constructs etc) vanish when the summoner is killed
Call for help: Summons a monster but not adjacent to the summoner but somewhere else on the level, awake and heading for the position of the summoner. This one is really for Ringwraiths but could find other uses I'm sure

This is just a suggestion while we are looking at the monster list. It might be worth discussing and seeing if this will work or not

[Sky]

From a practical point of view, i think monsters should summon others "1 tier" below them; to avoid a monster summoning a summoner who summons summoners.

The ringwraits should be able to summon each other and do so frequently as they travel in pack by canon.

Ancalong should summon a bunch of dragons, Glaurung should summon a horde.

Ungoliant should summon tons of strong new spirit, spider-like mobs; shelob is a loner.

The Radagast summons are pathetic. I still think Radagast should not be an enemy, it's like having to fight Galadriel; i also assume Ulmo and Arien are likely enemies of Morgoth in the canon.

Cantoras is pretty solid with the summons.

Horned Reapers are too strong. It takes long enough to kill one that they often summon another and i've had levels inundated by reapers like it's breeders.

Balrogs by canon should summin each other, but in game, they should summon smaller demons, or *rarely* other balrogs.

Lungorthin should summon balrogs regularly and Gothmog should summin a horde, like Glaurung - he is the CAPTAIN of the balrogs, as glaurung is the father of all dragons.



I would like to see a system where summons are similar to escorts, but some uniques right now are only killable if you are OP, if you abuse LoS, or have Banish.

[Sky]

Oops

It looks like Ossë is in fact .. a bit on Morgoth's side, enough to be an enemy.

[Grotug]

@Sky I disagree about Horned reapers. I like them just the way they are. I do agree with you about Radagast, though, although I like him as an enemy as far as all of his enemy traits are concerned (his summons and spells and attack ability etc.), I just don't like the idea that I am beating up the nice and friendly Radagast.

[Derakon]

Horned Reapers are amazing, being one of the few scary non-unique monsters for a high-level character.

[Thraalbee]

Absolutely. A nerf of them would be a sad change for me.

[Grotug]

I've actually begun to miss hellhounds when they were basically as scary as drolems. I would not be opposed to having their ferocity of old returned.

[Voovus]

Horned Reapers are amazing, being one of the few scary non-unique monsters for a high-level character.

I find Horned Reapers boring because I teleport them all away.

Now, if teleport and teleport other were removed, that would be a different story...

[wobbly]

I find Horned Reapers boring because I teleport them all away.

Now, if teleport and teleport other were removed, that would be a different story...

Yeah this. In fact anything bigger then a Marilith as it summons and smashes consumables. Bit the same with arch liches as I carry devices that can be drained. There's a bunch of stuff that can be killed but it's not worth getting your consumables wrecked over.

PCB-likes have a different balance here, you can protect your gear a bit easier and TO-ing is a little less certain (even with old school beams). Not necessarily suggesting a change, just saying these things are more of a pain to fight then to send away in V.

[Carnivean]

Horned Reapers are amazing, being one of the few scary non-unique monsters for a high-level character.

Horned Reapers are from the Dungeon Keeper series where they were notorious for not playing nicely with anything, let alone another Horned Reaper. It doesn't make any sense that they would summon anything.

They are scary powerful and great for the game though.

[Sky]

...they are not really amazing if all you do is dispel them.

[Nick]

Why do we have (essentially) one summon mechanic. Why not have more? This would make monsters more interesting and different as well as being useful from a thematic point of view.

So you could have some different ones like (names are pretty random)

Summon minions: Summons only lesser monsters which act like bodyguards
Summon assistance: As current summon, so may attract higher level monsters
Conjure monster: Summoned monsters (usually constructs etc) vanish when the summoner is killed
Call for help: Summons a monster but not adjacent to the summoner but somewhere else on the level, awake and heading for the position of the summoner. This one is really for Ringwraiths but could find other uses I'm sure

I like this line of thinking. There is already a (currently unused) different summon type of "calling monsters", where monsters are gathered from elsewhere on the level instead of being created new. I will be thinking seriously about how to implement some variant of these ideas.

[Derakon]

Some additional ideas, just brainstorming here:

* Summon chaff: brings in a large number of weak enemies to get in the player's way.
* Summoning circle: places a glyph on the floor that, in a set amount of game time, will be replaced by a high-level summoned monster. The player may attempt to disarm the glyph.
* Swap places: the monster exchanges positions with another monster (possibly only one the monster can see?)
* Animate Rock: converts adjacent walls into earth elementals (Earth Spirit for magma/quartz?).

Where the conditions for the spell aren't met, the monster shouldn't try to cast it, e.g. not casting Swap Places if there's no valid target.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I like this line of thinking. There is already a (currently unused) different summon type of "calling monsters", where monsters are gathered from elsewhere on the level instead of being created new. I will be thinking seriously about how to implement some variant of these ideas.

You might talk with Fizzix. I remember him doing a version where summons would only bring monsters that were already on the level.

[Pete Mack]

Nick-
Bringing in a number of dungeon level generated monsters (or slightly above) is equivent to bringing in a bunch of monsters from elsewhere on the level. This should be the default against which you decide other mechanics. Don't over think it.