Slay evil is a boring brand

[wobbly]

Pretty much the title. If you plan on melee-ing in the late game you're always looking for slay evil (alternatively +blows). I'm curious as to what it adds because currently it turns a bunch of not-slay evil in to trash. It's a lot harder for weapons to be interesting with such a clear favourite as an option.

[Monkey Face]

If you're playing a class that does not melee, then slays become meaningless and you now become interested in other bonuses that the weapon provides.

[Grotug]

Umm.. I beg to differ! I rarely wield slay evil weapons in the late game (or any part of the game for that matter). And the reason is simple. Slay Evil is relegated to the weakest damage-boost-multiplier. Branded weapons can affect the same number of targets and usually do more damage than slay evil. So, no. It's not an obvious choice at all. Nothing boring about it, either. Weapon branding/slaying is actually very balanced. The only thing I might say is that powerful slays and perhaps brands, too, are too overpowered on big dice weapons.

I'm always on the look out for big dice branded weapons and *powerful* slays of undead/dragons, which means I often have at least two weapons that I'm switching between. Slay evil weapons are obviously good for the final fights, but more often than not, I'm doing more damage to high value targets with branding and dragon/undead slays.

Honestly, I don't understand what compels you to make this post, Wobbly.

[Sky]

Ugh ... branded weapons??

Ignoring the "weak" brands (ever popular with randarts), what brand is that? Because Acid is the only viable lategame brand, as EVERYTHING has rFire/Cold/Elect and most have rPois. Many have rAcid too, but not quite as many as the others.

*Slay is far better, you can carry a swap to kill dragons, demons and the occasional undead. The ACTUAL fights are easier with these - i.e. Glaurung dies more easily, but most other lategame fights are not difficult enough that you need a *Slay. Otoh, Slay Evil just increases the damage versus everything ( as nearly every big monster is evil) which is why that's the goto ability for weapons.

[Pete Mack]

Sky: no. Brands are very powerful. It used to be possible to find acid or electric branded MoD and the like. Yeah, they were not useful against Morgoth and a few other monsters. So what? It does huge damage against just about everything else. (Note that getting 5 or 6 blows with a MoD was a lot easier--or even possible.)
More than once I have used a MoD of Gondolin as a mage. It gets 4 blows and does big damage against all 3 big types. Acid brand is just about as good--and used to be a lot more common.

[Sky]

Im sorry could you make a practical example of what uniques (or similar mobs) do not resist electricity??

[Derakon]

Im sorry could you make a practical example of what uniques (or similar mobs) do not resist electricity??

Carcharoth, Lungorthin, the Tarrasque, Cantoras, Draugluin, Maeglin, the Witch-King, Qlzqqlzuup, Great Wyrms of Balance/Law/Chaos, Pit Fiends, Feagwath, Bronze Golems, Ungoliant, Black Reavers...I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. Just search the monster list for "IM_ELEC".

[Sky]

..derp ... looks like i don't know my monster list that well.

[Pete Mack]

It's not the monster list so much as knowing your alternatives, which you won't learn if they aren't useful (or even possible.)

The trouble is that (a) brands, especially the top two or three brands--acid, elec, fire--stop showing up on ego items too early to make big 3 branded weapons possible*, and (b) randarts are (still) broken.

* really. Branded weapons top out at dl 60. Scythe of slicing starts at dl 60, and the other two are deeper. So branded MoD and BoC are impossible, and branded SoS only occurs exactly on dl 60 or level equivalent square in special room or vault.

[Muscleguy]

I disagree, slay evil does a huge range of monsters, all the dragons for eg, including multicoloureds who are immune to all your elemental slays. I think you are prejudicing a large effect on some over a moderately large effect on many more.

Find a weapon with Evil and Slay Animal and that's 90% of monsters. Also remember most of the uniques, certainly most of the humanoid uniques resist a lot of the elemental attacks. Also those able to cast Dispel Evil (which goes up in effect with level) will attest to the satisfaction it can engender. My half Troll Paladin went through a graveyard cavern with ease casting Dispel Evil/Undead (when my mana points wouldn't do Evil any more).

[Sphara]

Slay Evil is the brand you do want against Morgoth, right? Preferably on a high hit-dice weapon. So it is ultimately desirable for the endgame.

However, most of the time, SlayEvil won't even activate because the weapon has some better brands innit. THIS ofc with randarts. Lightning is an excellent brand as is acid. Way better throughout the game than slayevil.

I don't know if you find the SEARCH FOR THE MOST DAMAGING Morgy weapon, boring? Most of the game, brands and *heavy* brands are way better getting towards your objective.

Anyways, happy new year wobbly (and everyone reading this comment)

[wobbly]

I don't know if you find the SEARCH FOR THE MOST DAMAGING Morgy weapon, boring? Most of the game, brands and *heavy* brands are way better getting towards your objective.

The searching is less of a problem then the cutting down of interesting choices. A fair few otherwise interesting weapons just aren't because they lack the right brand. Warriors end up with far less interesting weapon options then casters which doesn't sit well with me. Compare to Crawl where each weapon type has a unique feel & style.

I suspect a large part of what's bothering me is that the % of damage coming from the brand is disproportionate. It makes someone like Radagast feel like he has steel-skin because few brands work, the melee damage against him is so low that the fight feels stodgy. He's not hard, he's annoying. Why is that good?

As for other brands doing more against other opponents that's only true if you want to carry swap weapons and check/memorize everything's resistances. Most but not all of the ringwraiths don't resist fire. Do I really want to check each of them to see if it's the 1 that does? Not when *slay evil will just work on all of them & not when 99% of the dangerous enemies are evil & a *slay evil weapon just works. Do I really want to carry a cold brand just for Ar-whatever the golden just because he happens to be 1 of the few uniques with the cold resist hole? Not when a warrior with a *slay evil will just punch through him with ease anyway.

I carry a bunch of swaps in Sil to always have the right brand. Sil's got a fraction of the slays & a tiny monster list. I'm not memorizing a billion monsters to do the same in V, not when I can just find a weapon that works & is good.

Anyway glad to see some differing opinions, half the reason for the original post was to stir a little.

Happy new year everyone!

[Grotug]

@Wobbly

I find the nature in which weapons are interesting for warriors to be much more interesting than the nature in which weapons are interesting for mages. That is, weapons are interesting for mages for their abilities like immunities, not for what kind of damage they do. Whereas, a warrior needs to consider all the pros and cons of different weapons: is pConf or pStun an ability worth sacrificing 30 damage for? Is lightning immunity worth sacrificing 50 damage when my only source of TO is a single metal wand? For newer players the answer is almost always yes. For more experienced players, maybe not.

A slay evil might do decent damage to a huge slew of high target monsters, but a big dice lightning brand will do much better damage to an equal amount of targets, but a different set, and maybe a slightly less high target set of monsters than slay evil (ie. you can't kill great wyrms of many colors with a elemental branded weapons).

For me the fun of playing a warrior is their potential for direct, raw power without worrying about running out of mana and resting all the time. I don't mind looking at monsters before I attack them (and it's no more obvious to me who is evil than it is which undeads resist fire: many humans and humanoids are evil, but lots of them simply are 'creatures').

I find it extremely satisfying to do 900 damage to dangerous monsters, which makes carrying 2 or 3 weapons (sometimes even 4) worth the trouble: a mage carries a bunch of books, a warrior carries a bunch of weapons; seems reasonable.

The simple problem (which is not a problem, but rather good game design) is that slay evil is a weak brand and always a weak brand. It never gets a high multiplier the way the elemental brands do. If you carry 3 weapons in Angband as a warrior it means you can do 900 damage to almost every monster except the 'creatures' that resist everything, which is why I never fight Radagast. I have no problem with the occasional annoying/difficult to kill monster that picks up objects, so long as there are very few of these types of monsters in the game, which is pretty much true, as most other monsters that pick up objects are weak to something. I think Radagast is an interesting foil. I'm actually very afraid of him, because he is much more dangerous than Saruman, but you'd expect the opposite, and, like Osse and Arien, he is too shallow for his power level, you never fight him on DL64 or whatever.

So, basically, I have my *slay undead / *slay dragons* weapons and then I have my elemental brand weapon. Sometimes I forget to pay attention to slay evil on lesser weapons to see if they do more damage against Morgoth than my big dice, branded weapons, and I've actually had several games lately where I'm not even doing 500 damage to him: basically, that amounts to an interesting trade off where I've opted for better damage against Morgoth's minions for less damage against him (but it's only one fight in the whole game so maybe it's a worthwhile trade off?)

Extra attack weapons are also good against Morgoth, not just slay evil. But to me it sounds like you are making slay evil a boring brand simply by making the conscious choice of not bothering with weapon juggling. Doing melee damage is the most important thing a warrior is doing (unless they find a very good launcher), so juggling weapons seems to be a reasonable expectation of them.

To me the relative weakness of slay evil has the opposite effect of being boring. I think it balances very nicely with the more powerful branded weapons, and thus makes for interesting decision as to which weapon to wield. Especially in an Ironman game where you can't just store the slay evil weapon at home until the final fight. Instead, you have to make the decision to take up a precious inventory slot when you find a good slay evil for the final fight, or forego the superior damage of your *slay undead* or lightning branded, big dice swap weapons.

I'm becoming of the mind that losing a powerful utility "spell" in order to carry another weapon swap is worth it. The more I play warrior and the more familiar I get with the monster list, the less I value banish and mass banishment scrolls. I'd rather have another powerful weapon swap than one or both of the banishment scrolls. So many of the good items I find in Angband are drops, so the more monsters I can kill, the more drops I can get. A warrior can quite easily beat Angband without ever stepping inside a permanent vault. Perhaps a fun challenge would be to play a Warrior without TO and without vaults.