What if someone had the map upside down? - aka blows again

[wobbly]

I used to hike with a guy who you'd never trust to navigate. I'm not sure he ever had the map upside down, that's actually pretty easy with a topographic map. I did see him try and use a compass on a car bonnet & he could point the wrong way north with a clear sky at noon.

"light weapons increase quicker with dex, heavy weapons with str..."
What if someone had the map upside down? After all the reverse is true.

I don't particularly think that's what happened but it occurs to me the progression is upside down. The top row (heavy weapons) goes from 1-4 blows as dex increases. The bottom row (light weapons) from 3-6. 4x with dex for heavy weapons. 2x with dex for light weapons. Eventually light weapons fall of the bottom if you are a warrior but that's besides the pt.

[wobbly]

Minor correction for those more interested in what's happening then my sarcasm. Peek dex to speed ratio is line 3. line 4 is about the speed of line 1. It accelerates quickly to line 3. It decelerates quickly after line 4.

If you want to understand what any of that means. Make every class use the same blow table & add the warriors extra blows after, restoring some sanity. Otherwise: which class? what str? what weapon weight? Too overloaded, really.

[wobbly]

& if you were actually after the sarcasm a mage has a 10 lb dagger. Minimum weight 4 lbs (the rapier). The 2.5x is relative to the warrior

mage:
min-weight:40
strength-multiplier:2

warrior:
min-weight:30
strength-multiplier:5

the priest has a 20lb mace(relative ...) & a 66.66666blah lb MoD (this 1 is why the table is ridiculous?)

min-weight:35
strength-multiplier:3

[Derakon]

I've been quietly agitating for everyone to use the same blows table for awhile now, with the warrior just getting a straight-up bonus blow at, say, level 20, regardless of what weapon they're using or what their stats are. I feel like the differing tables just makes the system unnecessarily opaque, and it's redundant with the stat bonuses/penalties that the different classes get.

[wobbly]

I've been quietly agitating for everyone to use the same blows table for awhile now, with the warrior just getting a straight-up bonus blow at, say, level 20, regardless of what weapon they're using or what their stats are. I feel like the differing tables just makes the system unnecessarily opaque, and it's redundant with the stat bonuses/penalties that the different classes get.

It would make more sense.

Looking at it again. There's actually a little valley in the top right corner. The bit in the bottom left I can't see because there's an exponential, so I can only really see that bit for 1 class & weapon weight

Edit: More accurately it's a gully

[wobbly]

The 3 line where it moves quickest is 18 str for a warrior with a dagger, I think? That's what I get plugging the numbers in

For a 10lb 18/30 str?

A priest with a 10lb 18/80 str?

For a mage with a rapier. adj_str goes up to 240 not 600, asuming my maths is right here

Edit: Which it isn't 18/40. Takes a while for a mage to get there

Edit:Ok I could work out a bit more, or conclude the whole situation is ridiculous.

[Tibarius]

I've been quietly agitating for everyone to use the same blows table for awhile now, with the warrior just getting a straight-up bonus blow at, say, level 20, regardless of what weapon they're using or what their stats are. I feel like the differing tables just makes the system unnecessarily opaque, and it's redundant with the stat bonuses/penalties that the different classes get.

+1 from me

[Pete Mack]

Same here. I never understood why the warrior lost his extra blow (at dl 26) in the first place.

[Werbaer]

Same here. I never understood why the warrior lost his extra blow (at dl 26) in the first place.

In which versions did the warrior have an extra blow? Frow-known, or 3.x?
(I've played 2.7.9 to 3.0.5, and 4.x, and none of these had an extra blow for warriors)


Maybe i should search dl 26 for the lost extra blow

[Pete Mack]

3.0.x had the blow. It.was 3.2 or so that it went away (whenever the blows table was changed to punish heavy weapons use.)

[Nick]

The blows table was essentially unchanged from 2.7.8 to 3.1.2, and it contained the actual number of blows (which was then reduced if it had passed the class cap). In 3.2.0 it changed to having an amount of energy per blow, and the number of blows became 100 / (value from blows table), capped again according to class. In detail, this is the table in 3.1.2:

/*
 * This table is used to help calculate the number of blows the player can
 * make in a single round of attacks (one player turn) with a normal weapon.
 *
 * This number ranges from a single blow/round for weak players to up to six
 * blows/round for powerful warriors.
 *
 * Note that certain artifacts and ego-items give "bonus" blows/round.
 *
 * First, from the player class, we extract some values:
 *
 *    Warrior --> num = 6; mul = 5; div = MAX(30, weapon_weight);
 *    Mage    --> num = 4; mul = 2; div = MAX(40, weapon_weight);
 *    Priest  --> num = 4; mul = 3; div = MAX(35, weapon_weight);
 *    Rogue   --> num = 5; mul = 4; div = MAX(30, weapon_weight);
 *    Ranger  --> num = 5; mul = 4; div = MAX(35, weapon_weight);
 *    Paladin --> num = 5; mul = 5; div = MAX(30, weapon_weight);
 * (all specified in p_class.txt now)
 *
 * To get "P", we look up the relevant "adj_str_blow[]" (see above),
 * multiply it by "mul", and then divide it by "div", rounding down.
 *
 * To get "D", we look up the relevant "adj_dex_blow[]" (see above),
 * note especially column 6 (DEX 18/101) and 11 (DEX 18/150).
 *
 * The player gets "blows_table[P][D]" blows/round, as shown below,
 * up to a maximum of "num" blows/round, plus any "bonus" blows/round.
 */
const byte blows_table[12][12] =
{
        /* P/D */
        /* 0,   1,   2,   3,   4,   5,   6,   7,   8,   9,  10,  11+ */

        /* 0  */
        {  1,   1,   1,   1,   1,   1,   2,   2,   2,   2,   2,   3 },

        /* 1  */
        {  1,   1,   1,   1,   2,   2,   3,   3,   3,   4,   4,   4 },

        /* 2  */
        {  1,   1,   2,   2,   3,   3,   4,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5 },
        
        /* 3  */
        {  1,   2,   2,   3,   3,   4,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5,   5 },
         
        /* 4  */
        {  1,   2,   2,   3,   3,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5,   5,   5 },
          
        /* 5  */
        {  2,   2,   3,   3,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5,   5,   5,   6 },
          
        /* 6  */
        {  2,   2,   3,   3,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5,   5,   5,   6 },
          
        /* 7  */
        {  2,   3,   3,   4,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5,   5,   5,   6 },
         
        /* 8  */
        {  3,   3,   3,   4,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5,   5,   6,   6 },
         
        /* 9  */
        {  3,   3,   4,   4,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5,   5,   6,   6 },
         
        /* 10 */
        {  3,   3,   4,   4,   4,   4,   5,   5,   5,   6,   6,   6 },
         
        /* 11+ */
        {  3,   3,   4,   4,   4,   4,   5,   5,   6,   6,   6,   6 },
};

and this is the current table (essentially unchanged from 3.2.0)

/**
 * This table is used to help calculate the number of blows the player can
 * make in a single round of attacks (one player turn) with a normal weapon.
 *
 * This number ranges from a single blow/round for weak players to up to six
 * blows/round for powerful warriors.
 *
 * Note that certain artifacts and ego-items give "bonus" blows/round.
 *
 * First, from the player class, we extract some values:
 *
 *    Warrior --> num = 6; mul = 5; div = MAX(30, weapon_weight);
 *    Mage    --> num = 4; mul = 2; div = MAX(40, weapon_weight);
 *    Priest  --> num = 4; mul = 3; div = MAX(35, weapon_weight);
 *    Rogue   --> num = 5; mul = 4; div = MAX(30, weapon_weight);
 *    Ranger  --> num = 5; mul = 4; div = MAX(35, weapon_weight);
 *    Paladin --> num = 5; mul = 5; div = MAX(30, weapon_weight);
 * (all specified in class.txt now)
 *
 * To get "P", we look up the relevant "adj_str_blow[]" (see above),
 * multiply it by "mul", and then divide it by "div", rounding down.
 *
 * To get "D", we look up the relevant "adj_dex_blow[]" (see above).
 *
 * Then we look up the energy cost of each blow using "blows_table[P][D]".
 * The player gets blows/round equal to 100/this number, up to a maximum of
 * "num" blows/round, plus any "bonus" blows/round.
 */
static const int blows_table[12][12] =
{
	/* P */
   /* D:   0,   1,   2,   3,   4,   5,   6,   7,   8,   9,   10,  11+ */
   /* DEX: 3,   10,  17,  /20, /40, /60, /80, /100,/120,/150,/180,/200 */

	/* 0  */
	{  100, 100, 95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  25,  23 },

	/* 1  */
	{  100, 95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  25,  23,  21 },

	/* 2  */
	{  95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  26,  23,  21,  20 },

	/* 3  */
	{  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  36,  32,  28,  25,  22,  20,  19 },

	/* 4  */
	{  75,  60,  50,  42,  36,  33,  28,  25,  23,  21,  19,  18 },

	/* 5  */
	{  60,  50,  42,  36,  33,  30,  27,  24,  22,  21,  19,  17 },

	/* 6  */
	{  50,  42,  36,  33,  30,  27,  25,  23,  21,  20,  18,  17 },

	/* 7  */
	{  42,  36,  33,  30,  28,  26,  24,  22,  20,  19,  18,  17 },

	/* 8  */
	{  36,  33,  30,  28,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  17,  16 },

	/* 9  */
	{  35,  32,  29,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16 },

	/* 10 */
	{  34,  30,  27,  25,  23,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16 },

	/* 11+ */
	{  33,  29,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16,  15 },
   /* DEX: 3,   10,  17,  /20, /40, /60, /80, /100,/120,/150,/180,/200 */
};

Note that from 3.2.0 on it was harder for warriors to get 6 blows, but fractional blows were now possible and there were more entries which resulted in more than 5 blows.

I can find no evidence that warriors ever got an extra blow, or that it was taken away. In the absence of specific evidence, I'm going to assume that the change in the blows tables above tell the whole story.

[Pete Mack]

Got it. I guess the difference is that the DEX table topped out at 18/150, so getting max blows was so much easier.

[Derakon]

I always took it as hyperbole when Pete said warriors lost their extra blow. They've been able to achieve 6 blows always. It's possible that changes to the table made it harder/impossible to get max blows with the heaviest weapons, but that's not the same thing as warriors losing their extra blow.

[luneya]

I always took it as hyperbole when Pete said warriors lost their extra blow. They've been able to achieve 6 blows always. It's possible that changes to the table made it harder/impossible to get max blows with the heaviest weapons, but that's not the same thing as warriors losing their extra blow.

Which is not to say that explicitly giving warriors +1 blows to all weapons after a certain CL wouldn't be an appropriate balance change, but it's still a new innovation, not a restoration of how it was in old versions.