spell casting and line of sight

[quarague]

I just lost a char to a small undead pit. Char was a HT paladin, level 38, dlevel 75, small room with 5x6 or so random undead. I know these rooms can be very dangerous ;-)
I had already killed a Dreadmaster and various other random G, standing in a corridor leading towards the room and killed the first few non wall passers. From detection I knew there was one master lich and 4 'e', I think 2 skull druj and 2 hand druj left (plus random harmless stuff) in the room.
The master lich cast teleport to and then I was hit by water 3 times before I got a turn. 400+ remaining hitpoints to dead.
Key question: the master lich (as any other monster) needs to have line of sight of me in order to cast anything? It is not sufficient, that it just knows where I am (through telepathy or something)?
Bad luck count: I had speed +21, drujs have +10? They cast spells 1 in 2 times? They have multiple spells to choose from, water is only one of them? So what are the odds that 3 out of 4 cast water at me before I get a turn?
Feature request: show the entire dungeon level including all monsters upon death. (I hope this doesn't exist already and I overlooked it). As is I never got to see the spot where my char died and which monsters actually hit me. This feature would also help better understand death from of screen situations.

[Derakon]

In Vanilla, monsters cannot cast without being able to see you. This is not the case in some variants, where they'll use splash damage to hit you when they cannot see your tile. Remember that LOS is asymmetric.

As for the odds of the drujs all casting water at you, drujs are nasty things, I definitely wouldn't expose myself to four even if I had speed advantage.

[Werbaer]

Bad luck count: I had speed +21, drujs have +10? They cast spells 1 in 2 times? They have multiple spells to choose from, water is only one of them? So what are the odds that 3 out of 4 cast water at me before I get a turn?

Speed +20. 1 time in 1.

It wouldn't help if, instead of water ball for 197 damage, they'd cast mana bolt for 253 damage, brain smash for 216, nether ball for 208 ...

In addition, how closely did you watch the messages? Several of their spells are able to stun you and even knock you out, unless you have protection from stunning.

[Nick]

In Vanilla, monsters cannot cast without being able to see you. This is not the case in some variants, where they'll use splash damage to hit you when they cannot see your tile.

I lost a character in NPP once from a high-level nether breather teleporting to me from out of LoS and breathing.

[Pete Mack]

Oh yeah. Azathoth is just death in NPP. Believe he also has passwall.

[Derakon]

NPP has a lot of uniques that are "flee the level immediately if you are not capable of taking them in a stand-up fight" caliber.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Also, the @##$%s can "see" and "target" your @ from inside walls, but your @ cannot target them with a spell or missile if the monster is inside a wall.

[quarague]

drujs are nasty things, I definitely wouldn't expose myself to four even if I had speed advantage.

I agree, I wouldn't do so on purpose either. Which raises the question how you are supposed to clean a room like that. Drujs don't move, they stay put.
Of course you never have to enter a particular room in angband, you can always just generate new dungeons. Having monster rooms that are not worth the risk for most chars in most situations is perfectly fine the way angband dungeons work. Undead pits in the bottom third of the dungeon seem to me to be things that cannot be cleared without major risks for any char.
I guess banish would work but that misses the point. A good pit room should be worth clearing for a well geared well prepared careful char. I didn't fulfill this when I tried, but I don't see how a different char could handle multiple drujs in an open lit room. Digging and line of sight trickery only works if they sit in different corners.

[Derakon]

Digging and abuse of LOS should allow anyone with ball spells to kill any stationary enemy, given enough patience. It may not always suffice if you only have straight-line ranged attacks, though.

But I'm firmly of the opinion that this is one of those things you just leave be if you have any option to do so.

[Pete Mack]

Another option is a staff of Banishment. But yes, tunneling so you are in view of at most one is the way to go. Then LOS abuse and/or TO.

[Ancient Yeek]

Only time so far I've found the one ring was in an undead pit. My tactic was to throw a draining orb in then teleport across the level and wait for whatever got mad to come fight me. Druj's I always try to teleport away I'll only deal with them if they're on their own. They're such a headache...

Maybe the new curse that prevents teleportation could be useful to stop you being teleported into the room

[wobbly]

Drujs are best banished if you have the option. I'm prepared to waste a ?banishment for them if I think the loot is equivilent or better. You can use an endgame consumable if it earns you a replacement after all.

[Pete Mack]

The monsters in a pit are always awake. If you need to obliterate an undead pit.
1. Drop any critical wands and staffs somewhere safe so they won't get drained.
2. Equip your amulet of sustenance (or equivalent). Put on rNether, rDark swaps if you have them.
3. Go into a hallway somewhere where the powerful PASS_WALL monsters will find you, but the others won't. Destroy them. Hope there is no Black Reaver. If there is a Reaver, make sure you are out of LOS of everything else when ot arrives, and plan on plenty of healing. Or banish L with a staff or armor. Or run away!
4. Get closer, where the other monsters can get to you. Destroy them as they come around the corner (or make a short ASC.)
5. Use LOS abuse on the drujs, digging holes in the moat walls as necessary. Start near a corner, and work backwards.

[Tibarius]

Digging and abuse of LOS should allow anyone with ball spells to kill any stationary enemy, given enough patience. It may not always suffice if you only have straight-line ranged attacks, though.

But I'm firmly of the opinion that this is one of those things you just leave be if you have any option to do so.

+1 from me

[Tibarius]

I just lost a char to a small undead pit. Char was a HT paladin, level 38, dlevel 75, small room with 5x6 or so random undead. I know these rooms can be very dangerous ;-)
I had already killed a Dreadmaster and various other random G, standing in a corridor leading towards the room and killed the first few non wall passers. From detection I knew there was one master lich and 4 'e', I think 2 skull druj and 2 hand druj left (plus random harmless stuff) in the room.
The master lich cast teleport to and then I was hit by water 3 times before I got a turn. 400+ remaining hitpoints to dead.
Key question: the master lich (as any other monster) needs to have line of sight of me in order to cast anything? It is not sufficient, that it just knows where I am (through telepathy or something)?
Bad luck count: I had speed +21, drujs have +10? They cast spells 1 in 2 times? They have multiple spells to choose from, water is only one of them? So what are the odds that 3 out of 4 cast water at me before I get a turn?
Feature request: show the entire dungeon level including all monsters upon death. (I hope this doesn't exist already and I overlooked it). As is I never got to see the spot where my char died and which monsters actually hit me. This feature would also help better understand death from of screen situations.

+1 from me for the last statement, for the player it is frustrating to get killed and being unable to know why or what hit him (and it prevents that the player learns from his mistakes).