Attribute Potions

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I definitely get the no-fun arugment. It's the symmetry argument of the original proposition that doesn't resonate with me.

For myself, I still find the Stat-Swap potions interesting. They pose a tactical choice, quaff now and take the risk, take up an inventory slot to carry it around, waste time taking it home and taking up a slot at home, saving for later might end up being a waste also. Sure waiting *might* provide an asymmetrical swap, but there is no guarantee and there is an opportunity cost. I don't see those tactical choices and the *possibility* of an asymmetrical swap as an "exploit". I find often I will quaff now or just pass it by rather than waste all the effort to carry, return, and store at home.

[Sky]

stat swap potions also have a downside nobody is considering.

in a world without stat swap potions, i can quaff any potion in the game, without any negative consequences. Maybe at most a Lose Memories, which now amounts to the loss of 400g as i need to buy a RLL potion.

in a world *with* stat swap potions, the dreaded Contemplation means you'll lose a point that could be vital. Imagine a beginning mage, maybe even not HE. Losing a point of INT that cost him an extra 4 character creation points, and he could have had 4 extra points of CON for.

Toughness isn't great either, while a high CON is fundamental in the endgame, having an extra 2hp won't help your warrior if he can't get more than 1 blow per round.

Intellect for warriors, unless you are superlucky and have WIS drained, you're gonna lose a point in a vital stat.

This means, i need to stash my un-ID potions until i can sell them. Otherwise, i only do this at the very start, to find !Speed, and endgame, to find !Life.

[Pete Mack]

@sky--
Actually, toughness is the only stat swap potion I have ever stashed, and exactly for the reason you suggest: thd need for CON comes on suddenly later in the game. A few !Toughness grants that, if you have a stash (once your base CON hits 17 or 18.) The trouble is I blow through DL 40 so fast, there is no chance to actually accumulate.

[fizzix]

It makes sense to me to make all stat gains linear and then get rid of the dumb 18/xxx system, and just make stats go from 0 to X, where X is the current maximum.

[Pete Mack]

The xxx stuff is silly, and purely a historical accident from early D&D; a number of variants just go from 3 to 40. It used to actually matter, though: stat drain after 18/10 sometimes only took you down half a full point. And stat gain after 18/80 was on average less than 1 point. That said, I assume by linear you mean integrer valued. If by linear, you mean: linear in effect, I think it's a bad idea. That last point of CON (or DEX, etc) should really matter.

[Nick]

Does anyone actually want to keep the 18/xx stats? Speak now.

[Sky]

Does anyone actually want to keep the 18/xx stats? Speak now.

not really, no.

[jevansau]

No, but it does have implications for stat potions.

[Derakon]

Eh, I'm used to it (e.g. I'd have to learn that the theftproof breakpoint for DEX is 33 and that CON above 38 doesn't matter), but that's not reason enough to keep the /x stat display system. Go ahead and make 3-40 the default display mode, I say.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I feel some nostalgia for the 18/00 system, but if it's actually a problem then change it.

[Voovus]

I'm with Ingwe on this one. It makes no sense, but adds a bit of flavour. But if you are set on evening out all the stat increases, then 1-40 is better than 1-18/**.

[Sky]

you mean 3-28

3 = 3
4 = 4
5 = 5
6 = 6
7 = 7
8 = 8
9 = 9
10 = 10
11 = 11
12 = 12
13 = 13
14 = 14
15 = 15
16 = 16
17 = 17
18 = 18
18/10 = 19
18/20 = 20
18/30 = 21
18/40 = 22
18/50 = 23
18/60 = 24
18/70 = 25
18/80 = 26
18/90 = 27
18/100 = 28

that's it for stat swap and stat gain. everything else is due to item buff.


AD&D has this silly thing where you go from 3 to 18, then from 18/01 to 18/100, and then 19.

[Werbaer]

Gain-stat potions used to give you +/10 per potion until you got near 18/80 or so and then started giving you less, so you needed several potions to get those last few effective points. E.g. a single potion might take you from 18/90 to 18/94. At some point that was changed, and (possibly at the same time) you got more than a point's worth of gain per potion early on in the 18s (taking you from 18 to 18/30 in a single potion).

The "more points at the 18 treshold" and "less points when near 18/100" were both already in version 2.7.9v6. Together, you needed about 10 potions for that range, with a big payoff when you cross 18, but at the cost of small increases late.

[Huqhox]

Back when the combat etc was closely modelled on D&D it made sense. It's drifted so far from that now that it serves little purpose and just confuses new players. I'd not miss it

You could always have an option to show the values as 18/*** for those who really want it

[Moving Pictures]

Generally, I avoid the stat-swap potions like the plague.

There can be some benefit, if used wisely.
Say, for example, your character has just bumped, but ran into a stat-drainer (Mind Flayer, Dread, Ghost, Ninja) and now you're looking at lugging 200 pounds of gear around a dungeon with an STR of 7, trying to cast spells as an INT 10 mage or something like it. A stat swap potion will restore lost stats.

In fact, despite the "I generally avoid" statement above, I intentionally sought out potions of toughness in a level just completed. Playing an ironman H/O paladin. I entered DL 46 as Cl33, and, IIRC, 30x hit points. 305? Game level is in the late 40s. We're talking 300 hp is bordering on a whole bunch of things can instakill, esp, say, nether which I don't have resists for yet. Things like Death Drakes, Intgast, Kevlax and suchlike dwell in these domains. And @ doesn't have ESP yet, so it increases the chances of bad things attacking with insufficient warning.

The low HP came because the base con was 13 (!). The level had a potion of CON and two potions of toughness. Drank both toughness to get the total +3 con, One sapped Wisdom (meh, have +11 Wis due to magical buffs, and a base of 14 before the loss) and the other sapped Dex (again, had 18/30-ish base, and a buncha buffs.) Wasn't worried about losing INT, and STR was pretty upped, so a point loss was also meh.

Going in, had zero buffs to Con, too. So the three total points for @ are/were HUGE towards future survivability. Now @ has 382 HP, and a buff to bring con above 18.
The other long-term planning here is that eventually, @ will find potions that restore the Dex/Wis, plus now the Con base is higher,, so future potions there will have a much greater impact.