"New" Angband: First Impressions

[Derakon]

Asymmetric LOS is not required for TO. You get one free turn when the monster moves from "not in LOS" to "in LOS". The only thing that asymmetric LOS does is give you a second chance if the first attempt fails, but you can always either take your chances spending a turn with the monster able to attack you, or use one of your 0%-failure escapes like Teleport Level.

[Sky]

I dont think its a matter of whats right or wrong but rather of "what do you want"?

L-LoS is a key aspect of the game and its how almost all OOD TO are made; wait for that great wyrm that can 1shot you to be in L LOS and TO.

If you WANT that the player has this choice of never ever having to fight, or even be in LoS of big bad mobs, then carry on as now.

After all the mob is right behind a corner and you see it, while you hug the wall and are almost invisible - there is even a rational explanation for it.

If instead you want the player to basically engage a mob - be in LoS, could catch a breath - to use TO, then change it. You could do symmetric but you could also do only-unimpeded, where ANY obstruction to LoS stops ranged attacks.

Id like to add that to me, Angband is all about exploits, just the same way that the game is about crippling curses and drolems instakills. GOP plus ring of acid, rangers with extra shots and HM, MBan spam, corridors full of runes, its all about exploiting your way through a merciless game that just wants to torture you.
Dont Derakonize it to the point where the only tactic is to Legendary-stealth your way on DL98 with 100hp.

[brbrbr]

I haven't played since 4.0, trying 4.1.3 now.
I must say I am happy with the changes.
Thank you guys for your hard work, I really appreciate you keeping the game alive and interesting!

Traps are adequate challenge, at least for kobold rogue, they add interesting randomization. Not too many. Do monsters fall on traps as well???

Rune-based ID makes sense, I like it, whish we had it before.

New "cursed" mechanic is interesting, not too many bad stuff.

Dangeon is still deadly and still "errh... what did Shadow do to insta-kill-me?".
Any changes to monsters?
Are wands of confusion/hold/slow still crap, or better then they used to be?

[spara]

My HT-W is now CL19/DL18. Still stumbling into traps . The previous time I played was somewhere around the test versions of the trap branch and I quite enjoyed the version, where traps were found by just stepping next to them. That version also placed them quite intelligently to junctions so that after a while one had to choose, which trap to try to disarm or trigger to progress. I found that much more interesting than the current "you step on a trap" play, which I feel I can't do nothing about.

"Confuse monsters" wand seems to rock! I just used it against Wormtongue and it actually worked. That was a short fight .

Still getting used to curses. @ is wearing a "ring of reckless attacks" that triggers the stoneskin effect from time to time. Not sure what to think about it. Feels like a mild annoyance so far, since it really doesn't effect gameplay much with the current enemies.

[Voovus]

By all modern forensic analysis standards, the Warren Commission was correct, Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, one shooter, no "magic bullet", no shots from the grassy knoll.

... but, no doubt, exploiting the hockey stick rule for shooting...

[Ingwe Ingweron]

And as Voovus said there, I do not expect this to be changed soon either. I was just surprised to discover this scummy shooting possibility just two/three months ago after playing this game for quite long time. 'Discover' here means that Ingwe taught it to me on angband.live.

Try winning Rocketband without it, just try, (Tongue in cheek, if it's not apparent from the smile.)

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Being disagreed on this topic feels like I'm against the Warren Commisson. The mechanic is broken but you guys want to keep it that way?

By all modern forensic analysis standards, the Warren Commission was correct, Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, one shooter, no "magic bullet", no shots from the grassy knoll.

[Gwarl]

I'd be fine with implementing symmetric LOS, personally.

I've been considering attempting this. Not only symmetric, but unified. Angband uses different algorithms for whether you can see a square vs whether you can target a square vs whether you can hit something in that square with a missile (the latter two are *almost* the same), or at least that's my understanding of it.

I'd like to turn all 3 into the same symmetrical, reciprocal algorithm but that would make the game distinctly less angband-y.

I am unlikely to get around to doing the coding any time soon but it's something I've thought about.

[Sphara]

There's two kinds of hockey stick. One is when you're a knight's move away from an enemy and can target them with '*' (without manually positioning the cursor) while they can't do the same to you. The other is when they're an arbitrary knight's move away (like, 8 tiles left plus 1 tile up) and you can target a tile way behind them and have the projectile pass through the tile they're in, hitting them as if you could target them with '*'. Monsters use the first version, in the sense that if they happen to be a knight's move away from you they'll happily use spells. They don't use the second version, nor does their AI take any special pains to try to abuse LOS quirks the way the player can.

I'd be fine with implementing symmetric LOS, personally.

Derakon did put it in words better than me there. It was the latter example he gives there I was referring as overpowered. I was not talking about knight's move attack. Maybe it's not 'realistic' that you can shoot someone who is around the corner an L-move away but as long as game tells me that I can see the monster, I'm more than fine with it.


And as Voovus said there, I do not expect this to be changed soon either. I was just surprised to discover this scummy shooting possibility just two/three months ago after playing this game for quite long time. 'Discover' here means that Ingwe taught it to me on angband.live.

[Voovus]

One thing to remove is that hockey-stick targeting. It's not only overpowered, it is stupid as hell.

It can represent shooting from behind a corner, so doesn't have to be thematically stupid. (I also find it's only really overpowered in conjunction with phase door, and arguably it's the latter that's overpowered. Not that I'd expect it to go or be changed anytime soon.)

[mrfy]

It would force players not to use broken mechanic.

Monsters use it against player too? How? They do not act if they cannot see you but you can target some distant tile behind them and let the projectile hit them. Even if you cannot see them.

Being disagreed on this topic feels like I'm against the Warren Commisson. The mechanic is broken but you guys want to keep it that way?

I guess I don't see it as broken since the monsters can use it too. They can also be in the hockey-stick position and fire spells at @.

[Derakon]

There's two kinds of hockey stick. One is when you're a knight's move away from an enemy and can target them with '*' (without manually positioning the cursor) while they can't do the same to you. The other is when they're an arbitrary knight's move away (like, 8 tiles left plus 1 tile up) and you can target a tile way behind them and have the projectile pass through the tile they're in, hitting them as if you could target them with '*'. Monsters use the first version, in the sense that if they happen to be a knight's move away from you they'll happily use spells. They don't use the second version, nor does their AI take any special pains to try to abuse LOS quirks the way the player can.

I'd be fine with implementing symmetric LOS, personally.

[Sphara]

Isn't this a case of changing the game to force a particular play style? Not all of us use hockey-stick targeting to kill monsters, and remember, the monsters can use it against @ too.

It would force players not to use broken mechanic.

Monsters use it against player too? How? They do not act if they cannot see you but you can target some distant tile behind them and let the projectile hit them. Even if you cannot see them.

Being disagreed on this topic feels like I'm against the Warren Commisson. The mechanic is broken but you guys want to keep it that way?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Isn't this a case of changing the game to force a particular play style? Not all of us use hockey-stick targeting to kill monsters, and remember, the monsters can use it against @ too.

I agree!

In addition to the hockey-stick being mutual (many times I am flummoxed by an "s" or the unpronounceable "Q" when they can hockey-stick @), I also see it as a bit of compensation for monsters being able to fire off magic and breath at @ while the monster is utterly safe inside a wall.

[mrfy]

One thing to remove is that hockey-stick targeting. It's not only overpowered, it is stupid as hell. It should be removed first thing before even thinking about dealing with the trap issue.

Hockey-stick targeting is close being the Angband equivalent to old nethack's Elbereth usage.

Isn't this a case of changing the game to force a particular play style? Not all of us use hockey-stick targeting to kill monsters, and remember, the monsters can use it against @ too.