Class/magic: non-casters and hybrids

[Nick]

So far the feature/magic branch has defined 4 realms and corresponding pure casters:

|  Realm  |    Caster    |
--------------------------
| arcane  | mage         |
| divine  | priest       |
| nature  | druid        |
| shadow  | necromancer  |

Assuming for the moment that this is roughly OK, the next question is: What other classes do we have?

The situation is currently:

• Warrior: no spells, the only design choices are stat bonuses, skills and intrinsics (like PFear at level 30).
• Paladin: Most of the priest spells (at a 5% fail rate) plus good fighting
• Rogue: Pretty much all the mage spells except direct attacks, non-fuzzy object detection, great stealth, decent fighting
• Ranger: Nearly as many spells as the mage (different selection), great archery (extra shots at level 20 and 40), OK fighting and stealth

Given that the realms and pure casters have been done from a framework allegedly rooted in Middle Earth, I've tried to re-think these from that perspective, with archetypical examples. Here's what I've come up with so far:

Warrior: Almost or completely unchanged. Examples - Boromir, Turin, Hurin.

Paladin: Basically a fighter, but with knowledge and support from the Valar. Would get combat buffs and healing, but not divine attack spells (no OoD!). Examples - Aragorn (in some aspects), Finrod.

Rogue/Thief: Fairly similar to current, stealthy and tricksy. A selection of arcane spells, and the ability to steal from monsters. Examples - Bilbo, Beren (maybe).

Ranger: This has always been a bit of an odd class; this suggestion is a re-thought Middle Earth ranger. Good stealth, ability to trick monsters, good use of the environment, goodish archery, decent fighting. Spells from the nature realm. Examples - Faramir and his people, Aragorn (in some aspects).

Archer: This takes the excellent archery from the old ranger class, and also the weaker melee fighting. Possibly no spells, or possibly a few utilities, from one of the non-shadow realms. Examples - Legolas, Beleg.

Assassin/Brigand: Treacherous, stealthy, tries to finish fights unfairly and quickly or runs away. Excellent stealth, good fighting against the unaware, some shadow spells. Examples - Wormtongue, Ulfang.

This is obviously work in progress, but I thought I'd get it out there for comment, and to aid my own thinking. I think there are likely other classes that would arise with a little thought (for example, I'd like to capture the elven smiths like Feanor and Celebrimbor in some way).

All opinions most welcome (some degree of constructiveness preferred...).

[Derakon]

I'm going to let this post percolate in my brain for a bit, but I do have one kneejerk reaction.

I think there are likely other classes that would arise with a little thought (for example, I'd like to capture the elven smiths like Feanor and Celebrimbor in some way).

Please do not try to add crafting to Vanilla. I can practically guarantee you it will be a ton of effort and result in something you won't be happy with gameplay-wise.

[Nick]

I'm going to let this post percolate in my brain for a bit, but I do have one kneejerk reaction.



Please do not try to add crafting to Vanilla. I can practically guarantee you it will be a ton of effort and result in something you won't be happy with gameplay-wise.

Trust me, that's my knee-jerk reaction too

[Tibarius]

classes uniqueness

I wonder if Ranger / Archer and Thief / Assassin are not basically the same. Until now each class was very unique in their powers. I think that was a good thing and should be true after your re-vamp as well.

[wobbly]

Can we decouple the ranger/archer bonus from the bow. It's a nice fit for elfs/humans but a slinger is a nicer feel on a hobbit & I'd prefer a crossbow when playing a gnome/dwarf.

[Gwarl]

I like eeeevil hybrid types who are warriors in service of a dark power and eschew stealth and finesse in favour of raw strength and power, even if they turn out a little underpowered. Less overlap with rogues.

[Nick]

Can we decouple the ranger/archer bonus from the bow. It's a nice fit for elfs/humans but a slinger is a nicer feel on a hobbit & I'd prefer a crossbow when playing a gnome/dwarf.

One thought I had was that archers only get the bonus if they're the correct race - so elf with bow, hobbit with sling, some races get nothing.

I like eeeevil hybrid types who are warriors in service of a dark power and eschew stealth and finesse in favour of raw strength and power, even if they turn out a little underpowered. Less overlap with rogues.

So an archetype for that might be - Ugluk. Or Gothmog .

[luneya]

One thought I had was that archers only get the bonus if they're the correct race - so elf with bow, hobbit with sling, some races get nothing.

I like the thought, but "nothing" would be a bad idea from a gameplay perspective. Perhaps a breakdown of archery bonuses more like this:

Elf (incl. half- and high-): Bow
Human (incl. Dunedan): Bow/crossbow (gets bonuses with both)
Hobbit: sling
Dwarf: crossbow
Half-orc/troll: probably same as human
Gnome: sling/bow?
Kobold: sling/crossbow?

These assignments thematically connect each race with a choice of archer weapon, without completely screwing anyone over (though hobbits are left worst-off, as good slings are rare).

[Voovus]

Elf (incl. half- and high-): Bow
Human (incl. Dunedan): Bow/crossbow (gets bonuses with both)
Hobbit: sling
Dwarf: crossbow
Half-orc/troll: probably same as human
Gnome: sling/bow?
Kobold: sling/crossbow?

Or make the extra shot trigger of stats, e.g. 18/60 Dex for the second sling shot, 18/60 Str for the second crossbow shot, 18/30 Dex and Str for the second bow shot. Hobbits, Gnomes and Kobolds have significantly higher Dex than Str and would naturally prefer slings, while Dwarves and Half-Trolls would naturally prefer crossbows. But if a Hobbit found the randart crossbow of their dreams, they could still turn all their gear upside down in order to use it.

[Derakon]

Oh yeah. If you're revamping the archer class, can you please please please give it extra might instead of extra shots? At least try it out?

Now, regarding your contemplations:

Warrior: Almost or completely unchanged. Examples - Boromir, Turin, Hurin.

If you're going to have multiple low-magic classes, they'll need to be strongly-differentiated by some other method. Warriors are acceptable-to-good at basically every non-magical skill except devices, so that doesn't leave you a lot of room to maneuver. On the flipside I have a little trouble saying that warriors need to be nerfed just so you can add more classes that are different from them. They feel like they're in a good spot balance-wise right now.

Rogue/Thief: Fairly similar to current, stealthy and tricksy. A selection of arcane spells, and the ability to steal from monsters. Examples - Bilbo, Beren (maybe).

Why steal from monsters when you can kill them and take everything? What's my incentive here? More generally, keep in mind that everyone needs to win, and to win they have to kill Morgoth and Sauron, so that implies a certain amount of martial capability; how do rogues kill things?

Ranger: This has always been a bit of an odd class; this suggestion is a re-thought Middle Earth ranger. Good stealth, ability to trick monsters, good use of the environment, goodish archery, decent fighting. Spells from the nature realm. Examples - Faramir and his people, Aragorn (in some aspects).

You're going to run into trouble with player expectations if the ranger is merely "goodish" at archery. Rangers are baked into the public consciousness as master archers, so they'd at least need to be next-best after the straight-up Archer class. Either that or ditch the Ranger entirely, seeing as Druids (current Nature users) already seem to be a hybrid class in playstyle if not in intent.

Archer: This takes the excellent archery from the old ranger class, and also the weaker melee fighting. Possibly no spells, or possibly a few utilities, from one of the non-shadow realms. Examples - Legolas, Beleg.

As noted above, please use extra might instead of extra shots. This becomes especially relevant if you expect the archer to kill most enemies with their bow, as ammo management rapidly becomes a chore.

Assassin/Brigand: Treacherous, stealthy, tries to finish fights unfairly and quickly or runs away. Excellent stealth, good fighting against the unaware, some shadow spells. Examples - Wormtongue, Ulfang.

There's a lot of conceptual overlap here with the burglar. I think that frankly Bilbo is just a "good" brigand, or alternately Wormtongue is just an evil burglar. Most of our classes don't currently make moral judgements, which provides some pleasing ambiguity about @'s nature (see also all the "maybe the player is evil" discussions we occasionally have). It'd be a shame to lose that.

[bio_hazard]

At first reading, this sounds more like the outcomes of a skill tree than distinct classes.

[Whelk]

I've always liked the idea of removing spellcasting from rogues entirely, but giving them some sort of magic-device-related boon to make up for that. Always seemed weird that rogues were running around casting spells from magic tomes, but the idea that they come upon some nifty magic devices in their life of "treasure hunting" that they've learned to use well jives well enough.

I mean, even if it's just a flavor thing in giving them a unique spellbook they use that isn't called a spellbook, but rather described as ... I don't know, some kind of magical doodad that can be activated for the effects.

[Estie]

Oh yeah. If you're revamping the archer class, can you please please please give it extra might instead of extra shots? At least try it out?

There is a problem with that. Namely, that melee has a bunch of modifiers that affect its damage - straightforward +damage on gear, +str, +str/+dex which add attacks, extra blows, whatnot. Archery has only 2 - extra shots and might. That is already a bad situation if you compare the artifact list of the plethora of melee weapons with the few possible combinations for launchers. Sofar, a ranger might not necessarily prefer a bow with extra shots. If you give him extra might, he always will.

If, as I believe, your objective is to reduce the relative damage increase, pretty much every other way is preferable to "more extra might" - a straight damage adder, fractional shots, a brand multiplier increase, you name it. Your suggestion would lead to zero variance itemisation.

I think I would add in a 3rd way of increasing damage to archery - not necessarily by adding it to the archer class (only). That would make the possible combinations more interesting and it also would reduce the weight of both the existing modifiers, shots and might. Off weapon straight damage would be the natural choice, but other ways can be conceived.

[Nick]

There is a problem with that. Namely, that melee has a bunch of modifiers that affect its damage - straightforward +damage on gear, +str, +str/+dex which add attacks, extra blows, whatnot. Archery has only 2 - extra shots and might. That is already a bad situation if you compare the artifact list of the plethora of melee weapons with the few possible combinations for launchers. Sofar, a ranger might not necessarily prefer a bow with extra shots. If you give him extra might, he always will.

If, as I believe, your objective is to reduce the relative damage increase, pretty much every other way is preferable to "more extra might" - a straight damage adder, fractional shots, a brand multiplier increase, you name it. Your suggestion would lead to zero variance itemisation.

I think I would add in a 3rd way of increasing damage to archery - not necessarily by adding it to the archer class (only). That would make the possible combinations more interesting and it also would reduce the weight of both the existing modifiers, shots and might. Off weapon straight damage would be the natural choice, but other ways can be conceived.

I've been thinking about this too. I like the idea of accomplished archers (with long/short bows) getting faster shooting speed, but the current implementation is way overpowered. My (and other people's) ideas so far include:

• Shooting speed tied to DEX
• Shooting speed tied to shooting skill
• Shooting speed tied to a specific class power (this already happens)
• Some sort of shooting speed modifier which works differently for the different launcher types (fast shooting doesn't really make sense for crossbows)
• Slings able to fire multiple shots, or even arbitrary objects
• Different shooting profiles for different races

As a first cut, making +1 extra shots actually +1/3 extra shots is maybe worth thinking about.

[Nick]

Now, regarding your contemplations:If you're going to have multiple low-magic classes, they'll need to be strongly-differentiated by some other method. Warriors are acceptable-to-good at basically every non-magical skill except devices, so that doesn't leave you a lot of room to maneuver. On the flipside I have a little trouble saying that warriors need to be nerfed just so you can add more classes that are different from them. They feel like they're in a good spot balance-wise right now.

I think warriors are pretty good now too, and I'm not looking to add classes for the sake of it - rather it's if there's a good coherent concept for a class.

Why steal from monsters when you can kill them and take everything? What's my incentive here? More generally, keep in mind that everyone needs to win, and to win they have to kill Morgoth and Sauron, so that implies a certain amount of martial capability; how do rogues kill things?

Because you can steal from things you can't kill yet They'll certainly need to be able to fight; I'm actually seeing the stealing as a means of accelerating their power increase.

You're going to run into trouble with player expectations if the ranger is merely "goodish" at archery. Rangers are baked into the public consciousness as master archers, so they'd at least need to be next-best after the straight-up Archer class. Either that or ditch the Ranger entirely, seeing as Druids (current Nature users) already seem to be a hybrid class in playstyle if not in intent.

I guess they would be the next best at archery. I'm also thinking of the ability to make monsters track to the wrong place, which lends itself to missile combat.

There's a lot of conceptual overlap here with the burglar. I think that frankly Bilbo is just a "good" brigand, or alternately Wormtongue is just an evil burglar. Most of our classes don't currently make moral judgements, which provides some pleasing ambiguity about @'s nature (see also all the "maybe the player is evil" discussions we occasionally have). It'd be a shame to lose that.

I think directly evil players are probably a consequence of having a shadow magic realm at all. That said, I think there probably is too much overlap between the rogue and assassin ideas. I like Gwarl's idea better; I'm thinking fighter powered up by shadow magic that massively enhances combat at the cost of personal damage and danger. There are plenty of Middle Earth examples - Black Numenoreans, followers of the Witch-King, etc.

At first reading, this sounds more like the outcomes of a skill tree than distinct classes.

In what way?