A novel solution to status effects

[Pete Mack]

I actually like the improved pathfinding, for the same reason OP doesn't.
It makes TO a little less of a guaranteed escape, since the powerful monsters will eventually find their way back. (It also makes certain fights easier: Sauron, Ungoliant, and other high-HP uniques in particular are easier to fight if you are able to completely control where you fight them.)

Interesting - I'll keep that in mind. The two main tasks for 4.2 are refresh of the monster list and of player classes, and the art will be to make the monsters interesting and challenging and make sure the player has the tools to deal with them.

[Derakon]

Just a note. TO is not "uniquely powerful." There's also Teleport Level, (Mass) Banishment, Destruction, and Alter Reality. The issue isn't Teleport Other; it's guaranteed escapes of any sort.
If you don't like escapes, you might wish to play Sil.

Teleport Other is unique in its functionally-unlimited availability for all classes, even warriors, and its "cleanliness" -- you aren't forced off the level as with Teleport Level or Alter Reality, and you don't risk destroying anything valuable like with Destruction. While I would characterize the other effects you listed as being primarily escape items with limited tactical use, Teleport Other is primarily a tactical item with limited use as an escape.

Some rather hasty words

If I've done something to offend you, please do let me know, either publicly or via PM.

I am putting ideas out there. They are not always good ideas. I'm relying on this community and the dev team to help either turn them into good ideas or convincingly determine that that is not possible. It's brainstorming, nothing more.

When discussing ideas, in any context, I rarely find it helpful to say "That won't work because." That's a destructive contribution; it doesn't do anything except shut people down. Rather say "How would this idea handle this specific consequence that I foresee?" For example, "how would we make certain that status effects that are guaranteed to land don't just become a mandatory prelude to every big fight?" That's a constructive contribution: you're challenging the idea to become better in a specific manner, and if the idea can't be adapted to solve that problem, then you have a compelling reason for why it shouldn't be implemented.

I've strived to use this approach to constructive criticism in the many conversations we've all had on these forums. Oftentimes ideas are put forth without much forethought -- by myself included! I'd much rather see someone spout off an idea without fully thinking it through, than I would see people be too afraid to suggest anything because every time they do they get shouted down. It's then the community's job to help refine the thinking behind the idea and determine if it's gold or dross. Truthfully most ideas are dross; game design is hard and it's very easy to have unintended consequences. The more ideas we can catch before Nick et al have to put in the effort to implement them, the better.

[Gwarl]

Apologies, the tone was intended as more light hearted than it came across. I do think you make good contributions here, but I think it was discussed in the previous thread - you mostly play warriors. I enjoy(ed) using effects like confuse and slow even if they didn't always work. Now that they always work but are almost never useful a large part of the way I play the game got cut away (I still use sleep monster a lot, because it was unchanged and is still useful).

Your new idea ITT basically amounts to changing all status effect into weakened versions of sleep monster.

I still contend that the original effects we had for several decades which feature in other roguelikes are a good idea and they work, they just needed the probability distributions tweaked.

We got a new formula when the status changes came in, but we also got the status effect changes which made it moot.

I believe Nick and Takkaria are aware of my arguments for this, so I'm content the put it on the list of things to change in a variant I make, mostly, but I still feel the need to make snide comments when the subject comes up apparently.

You haven't offended me, the status effect changes you proposed which feature in 4.1.0 have.

[wobbly]

I mostly agree with Gwarl that other variants, such as O handle this better. that said as to whether they are currently useful: I've seen Ingwe take stun into the Morgoth fight every time I've watched. I've been using hold monster pre-to mostly to block a corridor.

[wobbly]

Interesting - I'll keep that in mind. The two main tasks for 4.2 are refresh of the monster list and of player classes, and the art will be to make the monsters interesting and challenging and make sure the player has the tools to deal with them.

Are we going to get Nrulings? Those things are absolute bastards.

[Philip]

O is not a good model for status effects. Unless you have full monster memory, using a status effect in any given fight is a bad idea. If you have full monster memory, it's almost certainly a bad idea, unless it's one of the extremely powerful later ones (Wand of Saruman and Mage spell Beguiling basically), or you have a charge in a wand you were going to drag up to sell anyway.

Please introduce Nrulings and also Crows of Durthang (and modify monster generation so that they can turn up on dlvl 1, as in O), Also beef up Storms of Unmagic to O levels, and add Wiruin. That should be a start.

[Gwarl]

I mostly agree with Gwarl that other variants, such as O handle this better. that said as to whether they are currently useful: I've seen Ingwe take stun into the Morgoth fight every time I've watched. I've been using hold monster pre-to mostly to block a corridor.

I object to the way stun works for other reasons. Hold is like a bad sleep monster. I just want my slow and confuse back.

[AnonymousHero]

I have to say I'm basically with Derakon on TO. It really is fundamentally different to the other super-powers and needs to be thought of and "balanced" (for gameplay) as such.

Unfortunately, I don't have any creative ideas as to what to do about it, exactly, but perhaps just making it non-zero-fail (assuming the activation/spell fires) would make it a lot more interesting. (But that throws off one of the core mechanics of "funnel + TO" when encountering vaults... but maybe that's OK?) Maybe change to a beam and a 20% baseline chance to resist with +10% for uniques or something like that? Just throwing it out there, it's not something I've spent too much time thinking about.

[bio_hazard]

Options might be
-have the distance TOed inversely related to the level of the monster in some way.
-Have a counter for the number of times TO has been used on a given level. The more times you've used it, the more likely it will act like Teleport Level on the character.

Both of these would keep it always useful as an escape, but maybe limit no-repercussion spamming.

[Derakon]

have the distance TOed inversely related to the level of the monster in some way.

I like this, as an analog sort of "teleportation resistance". In-between being teleported across the level and not being teleported at all, monsters might simply blink as per Phase Door. With appropriate messaging, you could clue in the player about what's going on and help them infer that TO gets steadily less useful as you try to use it on bigger targets.

However, players probably shouldn't get the same kind of partial resistance; blinking in the middle of a fight can easily be more dangerous than teleporting.

[bio_hazard]

It wouldn't have to be straight-up based on native depth, but could also be a function of device skill or spell level or whatever. I suppose it would depend on if you are mainly interested in early or mid-game vault-raiding or whether this is something that's going to change how TO is used in the end-game.

I didn't think about the reverse case of players being teleported. The binary save seems to work pretty well.

[Pete Mack]

If you're going to kill teleport, you might as well do away with greater vaults, at least below around DL 80. There is no way to deal with a 40 level OOD monster except teleport and avoidance.

[bio_hazard]

I don't think either of those suggestions "kill teleport" or necessarily change vault strategy. In case of changing tele distance, it would just increase the probability of return/lessen the time you have before a powerful monster makes it's way back to the vault.

For the chance-to-TL mechanic, worst case is you don't complete the vault and end up on a new level with a guaranteed move before monsters. I think this would be frustrating, but only deadly if you stash vulnerable consumables somewhere and get booted before you can retrieve them.

For what it's worth, I don't feel like TO is necessarily broken, more like an option for players to rely on to whatever degree they feel like they want to. It sure helps, but you still need some skill to deal with line of sight etc.

[Nick]

Just thought it's worth mentioning - I still have no plans to change teleport other, and the recent changes to teleport self have been only to put the code for it on a sounder footing (and there is still some work needed there).

[Pete Mack]

Guys: the way to fix vault behavior isn't messing with TO. It's fixing wierdnesses in pathfinding. If TO distance gets nerfed, the rational response is to TO a whole lot of weak monsters until one ends up near the entrance to the vault. After that, phase door to the vault, then TO to your hearts content. The weak monsters will stay away, and block stronger monsters.
The fix I recommend: give ALL monsters exchange places if the other monster is either asleep or 20+ DLs weaker. Get rid of "passes by weaker monsters" entirely.