Newbie Post - see inside for new depths of ignorance!

[momo125]

Stone to mud only wakes fewer monsters than tunneling because it only uses 1 turn. It may seem like tunneling goes fast ( with good Stg and shovel) but you tunnel for several turns.
If you are casting the spell and keep resting for more mana the results might be the same.

[Zero]

They do. V SVN has explicitly fixed the size of detects.

Never mind that this is the one "exploit" that doesn't measurably affect game balance. (It did not rate mention in the V3.0.0 changelog, and got absolutely no negative PR under Robert Ruehlmann; all GUI ports have it.)

When you say, "They do." do you mean that purists consider it cheating? I'd never thought of it as cheating, but I play on a screen big enough that I can see the entire dungeon without any scrolling, so magic mapping + Rod of Detection shows me every detail of the entire level. I like it because this way I don't have to cast multiple detection spells every 3 seconds, but I also have to disagree with zaimoni about the effect on game balance. It REALLY does help to be able to see every monster and object on the level. Of course, I still die a lot because I take risks, so maybe it's not so bad. I think combining complete detection with disconnected stairs helps to alleviate the stair-scumming that would likely result otherwise.

What would be great is if detection effects had a time duration, so as you walk around you can see stuff that comes within a certain radius of the player, without having to constantly cast detection. Detect Monster should work similar to ESP. I tried the SVN build, but HATED it and went back to the stable version because of the way that trap detection works. Having to constantly check to see if that hard-to-see "DTraps" has appeared again at the bottom of the screen is a show-stopping error, IMO. I will NEVER EVER EVER play with trap detection working like that. Ever.

[roustk]

but I also have to disagree with zaimoni about the effect on game balance. It REALLY does help to be able to see every monster and object on the level.

It is also incredibly important for warriors. If you aren't playing for speed, casters can rest and redetect with little worry. Warriors however have to rely on consumable scrolls and staffs for detection for the early game. Big screen effectively cuts the price of mapping and detection by a factor of at least 4.

[Marble Dice]

Yeah, he's saying that detecting the entire dungeon floor at once with a level 1 mage spell is exploitive to the point of cheating, which is why it's been fixed in the upcoming 3.1.

I think light, line-of-sight, ESP, and the various kinds of detection should have boundaries, my only problem was that for detection, those boundaries were asymmetrical to the point of handicap and based on a user-configurable setting. Whether or not those boundaries are balanced appropriately for the different kinds of abilities and for the different classes, I can't really say.

Detection (Detect Monsters, Evil, Invisible, Magic Mapping, Hidden Doors/Traps) is limited in range and frequency (you have to re-cast the monster spells), but is readily available from the beginning of the game (low level scrolls, staves, rods, and spells). This forces you to balance safety (frequent detection) vs cost (be it gold, time, or using too much mana only to realize you've got a fight coming down the hallway).

ESP is more uncommon, and also limited in range and the kinds of monsters it reveals, but it features a high frequency - if you know something's near, you know where it is at all times.

Higher level detection abilities combine the different domains for more convenience and efficiency but similar range and frequency limitations. The high-level priest spell Clairvoyance and !Enlightenment are the rare "golden-bullets" of detection which show you all static dungeon features, everywhere.

I think, undeniably, setting a hard, symmetrical limit on detection abilities is the right decision. Perhaps from this point, some of those abilities could be re-balanced, maybe the range is too short, maybe the interface needs more features to make it easy, maybe the monster spells should last for a few turns, maybe warriors don't have enough to make up for their (intentional) lack of detection. I wouldn't really know, I don't play classes that don't get detection.

[DireWolf]

Nice post Marble Dice (the big one) . Thanks for the additional insights, guys!

As far as the detection goes, that probably should have been a fixed radius since day one, but I would guess that they never really imagined the amount of porting which would be done to the code. I would like to see that change done. It makes is alot easier to balance and to make subtle tweaks to the game if those kinds of things are fixed, and preferebly loaded from a text file! As a former game tester, I hate hard coded values witha a passion! Its so much easier to balance when you don't have to wait for the next build, and I believe exposing the internals to tweaking is the best part of open source.

BTW when you factor in cost, don't forget the inventory slot! A warrior has to use alot of space to duplicte the abilities of the spellusers. For that reason it would be nice if the scrolls/devices are not underpowered vs the spells...

[zaimoni]

When you say, "They do." do you mean that purists consider it cheating?

The difference between exploiting a perceived interface bug (whole-screen detection), and outright cheating (say, savescumming), is fairly minor on USENET.

My attitude is that as long as the usage is consistent, even fairly outrageous abuses that respect permadeath are simply "unenforced ironman/munchkin options". Just don't actually claim a win with at least one munchkin option.

That said, I don't think whole-screen detection is game-breaking (either too easy or too hard).

..., but I also have to disagree with zaimoni about the effect on game balance. It REALLY does help to be able to see every monster and object on the level. Of course, I still die a lot because I take risks, so maybe it's not so bad.

Merely knowing where every monster is on the level, doesn't help me that much. Intentionally not triggering Hounds, or passwall/killwall monsters, by walking just outside their telepathy radius does help moderately, but that requires knowing the monster telepathy radii one way or another. (Assumed: a proper Death Bow has been enchanted.)

I think combining complete detection with disconnected stairs helps to alleviate the stair-scumming that would likely result otherwise.

My experience is that stair-scumming doesn't automatically result with connected stairs. (Then again, the fact it only takes one turn to use the stairs suggests they aren't that physical....) That requires a working (customizable) level feeling system; the current one works only as a cash-on-floor estimator in the early game.

Having to constantly check to see if that hard-to-see "DTraps" has appeared again at the bottom of the screen is a show-stopping error, IMO. I will NEVER EVER EVER play with trap detection working like that. Ever.

Somehow I doubt "easier to see" would be a complete solution. (But then, I don't have a good visual on what a complete solution would be.)

[zaimoni]

It is also incredibly important for warriors. If you aren't playing for speed, casters can rest and redetect with little worry.

In the early game. Nexus Hounds are the earliest hound packs that are "flee-level". (They wouldn't be if there was any reasonable chance of RNexus.) In any case, a number of the mid-game hound packs give a strong incentive to deny them a chance to spawn, which means playing for speed is somewhat necessary starting ~DL30.

[roustk]

In any case, a number of the mid-game hound packs give a strong incentive to deny them a chance to spawn, which means playing for speed is somewhat necessary starting ~DL30.

There is some truth to that, but plenty of people are putting up 10M turn wins with casters so it isn't totally unreasonable. My Half-Troll Mage win was 7M turns, 80x24 screen, clearing complete levels, and nearly never fleeing levels. And years ago I had priests resting for pseudo at hound depths, some of which became winners.

I need to play more fragile casters to have a better sense of how things fall apart for those types. But it seems that players at CL>DL pace should be in adequate shape.