I want more hitpoints

[Sky]

I want a system where the first 3 level-up you are guaranteed at least 50% of your hit-die. Re-roll if under the minimum.

I just started a hybrid and rolled 8hp, 1hp, 2hp.

I get that eventually the spread balances out but those first 3 rolls are so important, that it's easier to restart rather than agonizing with 24hp at CL4.

[Huqhox]

First rule of Angband: The RNG hates you

That is particularly harsh but no worse than e.g. reliable methods of sinvis not being generated for a long time

Although I do think that it could be worth discussing if there is a still a need to roll for HP; just a fixed amount per level would work just as well, maybe

[Mondkalb]

Maybe some new early rings could be helpful: rings of (small amounts of) +HP instead of CON.

[Estie]

Bad HP rolls are just one of a gazillion ways the game can deal you a bad hand. There is no more reason to plug this hole than there is to plug any of the many others.

Forget your HP amount, just look at the colour of @ and act according to the change.

[kandrc]

Maybe there should be an assortment of difficulty-modifying cheat options. For instance:

• 1.5x HP multiplier for @.
• Monster spell failure rates multiplied by 1.5.
• Double probabilities of egos and artifacts.
• @ gets intrinsic SI and FA, regardless of race.
• XP per kill and drops are doubled.
• New, super-egos are included.
• Resistances are more effective.
• Immunities are more common and include high elements.
• etc.

Maybe rather than calling them "cheat options", call them difficulty options, and instead of marking the file and dumps as "cheater", mark it as "Easy Mode", thus avoiding the cheater stigma for new players.

Maybe then fewer people will come to the forums asking that the game be made easier.

[Derakon]

I just started a hybrid and rolled 8hp, 1hp, 2hp.

Assuming you had a d10 hit die, you're only 5.5 HP under the average for 3 rolls. Is that one extra hit from a snaga really going to make or break your game?

I do like the idea of Rings of Health, though they're only really necessary because the CON <-> HP scale is so massively backloaded.

[Philip]

Hm, I'd rather developers worry about issues with the base game than try to make 10 different variants (with combinatorics, a lot more than that) of the game all playable. There are too many different gameplay versions out there already.

[Sky]

Because the reality of the game is that it takes 3 minutes to get to CL4 and that hp score will affect you for hours and hours. If you roll a mage and you have 20hp instead of 60hp, everyone will restart. Math doesnt count when the player experience dictates otherwise.

[kandrc]

everyone will restart

Citation needed.

I either survive until I get my CON up, or I don't. I've literally never restarted because of HP rolls. I've never even paid attention to them. With my young mages, I'm concerned with INT and SP, speed, and stealth, not necessarily in that order. I suspect the same is true of most experienced players.

[Derakon]

Because the reality of the game is that it takes 3 minutes to get to CL4 and that hp score will affect you for hours and hours. If you roll a mage and you have 20hp instead of 60hp, everyone will restart. Math doesnt count when the player experience dictates otherwise.

a) you're not going to get a 40HP differential with your mage. Let's say we have a mage with a d8 hit die (average 4.5HP/level) and no CON bonus; if we're looking at a 60HP mage, they're about level 13 (start with 8 HP at level 1, then 52 / 4.5 = 11.55). To instead have only 20HP at level 13, you'd have to roll a 1 on your hit die literally every level, at odds of 1 in 8^12 or about 1 in 69 billion.

b) the kinds of HP differentials you actually get in gameplay (i.e. instead of your statistically impossible strawman) are irrelevant to mages because all that really matters is that they die instantly to any remotely relevant threat. Whether you have 40 or 60 HP at dlvl 20 doesn't really make a difference.

c) stop worrying about whether you're getting a fair game and just play the game. Roll with the punches the RNG gives you. It's more fun that way. Are you going to reroll until you get "good enough" treasures in your first dungeon dive? That has way more of an impact on your survivability than getting fewer HP than you "should" have.

[Sky]

you do this every time.

step 1: ignore the complaints of novice players.

step 2: complain that new people do not pick up angband.

ermagherd V is too easy lets nerf everything. 40 to 60 hp DOES matter, when you are meleeing cutpurses for XP. If you are not meleeing cutpurses, then you have lost touch with what it is like to play angband - not the first time this happens in a game.

[Philip]

If you want to melee cutpurses, I suggest you play a warrior, who are designed for melee, or a rogue, who are apparently superior, or a ranger, who can at least conserve ammo that way, or a paladin or a priest, who have no other options. And even on most of those I'd go with ranged attacks. If I have lost sight of angband by doing this, clearly I never played the game, given how I never did that, even starting out.

I would also not melee cutpurses for XP on any character, but I can see how a new player would. I suggest making cash theft permanent again to discourage this behavior.

[kandrc]

when you are meleeing cutpurses for XP

Not only should you not be meleeing cutpurses for XP, you should not be meleeing *anything* for any reason. You shouldn't have a weapon wielded unless it supplies and important benefit; to me that means int, speed, stealth, ESP, SI, or regeneration (I will not wield a weapon for FA; I don't think it's important enough). When playing mages, I squelch all good weapons right away. I squelch all Slay and branded weapons as I find them. I check all *Slay*, Gondolin, and artifact weapons for the abilities on the above list and choose a stat stick among them (defender, HA and Westernesse, and even Gondolin are usually garbage by the time I find one) based on (approximately):

big speed > ESP > big int > medium speed > medium int > big stealth > small speed > SI > regen > small int > small stealth.

If I've got a set of otherwise equal choices, I choose the lightest one, regardless of dice or enchantments.

Only very light armors are used until strength is up, with again int, speed, stealth, and abilities being priority. It is common for me to have a ~cl28 mage with herioc+ stealth, +8 speed (from two rings of escaping), no Rbase, and 50% more SP than HP on DL 98.

About a year ago I attempted a level-clearing ironman mage, where level clearing means not only fully exploring every level, but killing everything. To be clear, I think that winning such a game would require far more luck than skill. I don't recall exactly how far I got, but I know that I killed Kavlax with magic missiles at roughly his native death, and it was a Great Wyrm in a vault that took me out. Never did I rely on melee.

If you want to melee with a mage, play a half-troll. Thanks to their high strength and big hit dice, they are surprisingly among the better mage races, and due to their very low starting int and high strength and con, they play very differently in the early and mid games.

[Philip]

Paradoxically, a half-troll mage doesn't really have to do the whole melee thing though, since Regen means they don't run out of spell points, so there's pretty much never a good reason to melee.

[Nick]

My take-home message from this thread is that it's good to hear multiple points of view, and that no-one should assume their play style is universal.