A few observations after my first win

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  • luneya
    Swordsman
    • Aug 2015
    • 279

    #16
    Originally posted by DirtyHippy

    3) Uniques that don't drop. I'm pretty sure the elemental uniques don't drop anything, for example. In a game where everything revolves around items, fighting uniques that don't drop anything once you kill them is just irritating.

    4) Weird uniques. Sometimes I felt like I came around a corner and "You see Darth Vader. You see Braveheart." I'm not a big LOTR guy, sure I've read the books and the movies, but a lot of these uniques seemed like they were pulled from other mythologies, and it just seemed...weird.
    The monster set in the early versions was cribbed from D&D, with a few Tolkien references thrown in for flavor. There are still plenty of D&D-based common monsters running around, but the list of uniques is mostly thematically legit. Exceptions:
    • Father Christmas, but he's just a holiday Easter Egg.
    • Orfax and Boldor--yeeks as a species aren't actually part of anybody's mythos, but were apparently invented by the creators of the original Moria just so that they'd have a monster to use the symbol y.
    • Mughash--possibly a misspelling? Tolkien does have a named orc "Muzgash," who does not appear as a separate character in Angband.
    • Draebor and Lokkak--apparently invented by the Angband creators to fill out the list of Uniques in the early versions.
    • Medusa--Greek mythology, of course. She's found in pretty much all of the roguelikes. Fortunately for players, Angband (unlike, say, NetHack) doesn't allow anything to be actually turned to stone.
    • Vargo, Waldern, Quaker, and Ariel--The annoying elemental uniques, that are the main subject of your other complaint. I can't find any evidence of mythological origin for any of these. I'll happily endorse dropping this quartet from the game entirely. They really don't have any interesting function except for being another bunch of mid-level foes.
    • Phoenix--another creature out of standard mythology rather than Tolkien. Not quite the roguelike standard that Medusa is.
    • Lernaean Hydra--ditto.
    • Baphomet the Minotaur Lord--one of the few D&D-origin uniques that we haven't gotten around to replacing with something more thematic
    • Queen Ant, Cat Lord--frankly, these two are so generic that they can't be considered part of any specific mythos. There's certainly nothing thematically inappropriate about having ordinary animals on the monster list in addition to the creations of Morgoth and Sauron. Just think of these guys as more of the same.
    • Tselakus, the Dreadlord--another D&D import, I think.
    • Omarax, the Eye Tyrant--ditto.
    • Pazuzu, Lord of Air--yep, D&D again.
    • Polyphemus, the Blind Cyclops--okay, I'll concede that the Greek mythology inclusions are starting to get a bit ridiculous.
    • Qlzqqlzuup, the Emperor Quylthulg--like the yeeks, quylthulgs were introduced in the original Moria because the developers wanted to have monsters for all of the available letters.
    • Cantoras, the Skeletal Lord--while various forms of undead are legitimate parts of the Tolkien canon, drujs (including Cantoras) come from D&D. But they aren't obvious misfits unless you actually look up the history, as I'm doing now.
    • Vecna--another D&D undead lord. This one's too distinctively D&D to pass as Tolkien.
    • Tarrasque--pure D&D, but we can hardly drop the most powerful foe in the game. And all of the similarly-powerful entities in the Tolkien mythos are already used, so we can't just rename it either.
    • Atlas and Kronos--two more from Greek myth. But at least these are a bit more generic than Polyphemus.


    Hmm, that's a bit more than I thought--about a quarter of the total list of uniques. But still, a quarter of the list being off-theme means that three quarters are fully appropriate, which represents a pretty impressive body of work by previous Angband devs. And of these non-thematic monsters, only a handful are really jarringly out-of-place. We might want to significantly reform the regular monster list, but I'm not too concerned about the uniques.

    Comment

    • Sky
      Veteran
      • Oct 2016
      • 2321

      #17
      Pazuzu was a celestial being before he was imported to D&D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazuzu
      "i can take this dracolich"

      Comment

      • Nick
        Vanilla maintainer
        • Apr 2007
        • 9637

        #18
        Originally posted by luneya
        And of these non-thematic monsters, only a handful are really jarringly out-of-place. We might want to significantly reform the regular monster list, but I'm not too concerned about the uniques.
        I'd be most inclined to replace the Greek ones (although I kind of like The Phoenix).
        One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
        In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

        Comment

        • Pete Mack
          Prophet
          • Apr 2007
          • 6883

          #19
          Tarrasque is also a creature out of French folklore.

          Comment

          • Derakon
            Prophet
            • Dec 2009
            • 9022

            #20
            I like the elemental uniques. They're one of your first introductions to the fact that not all enemies are worth fighting, and they create interesting tensions when they're placed in a vault (and thus threaten to trample all of the items in said vault if not dealt with delicately).

            Regarding the Greek uniques, I feel like the non-giant ones are okay, just like it's okay to have sphinxes, manticores, chimerae, etc. They're "generic monsters" that show up in many settings. The giants/titans, though, are fairly specific excerpts from the Greek pantheon, and start feeling more out-of-place.

            EDIT: fix typo, plus noting that I kind of feel like fighting Kronos is only very slightly less bizarre than fighting, say, Zeus would be.
            Last edited by Derakon; April 15, 2017, 01:35.

            Comment

            • Pete Mack
              Prophet
              • Apr 2007
              • 6883

              #21
              There are two named giants in Tolkien's mythology; Sil uses them. There's also a long list of names from Norse mythology.


              I agree Greek names just don't fit here.
              Edit: fix ridiculous autocorrect error
              Last edited by Pete Mack; April 20, 2017, 18:47.

              Comment

              • Adam
                Adept
                • Feb 2016
                • 194

                #22
                Originally posted by DirtyHippy
                4) Weird uniques. Sometimes I felt like I came around a corner and "You see Darth Vader. You see Braveheart." I'm not a big LOTR guy, sure I've read the books and the movies, but a lot of these uniques seemed like they were pulled from other mythologies, and it just seemed...weird.
                One thing which always disturbed me is some uniques which fit in theme but I can't imagine them being in the dungeon as opponent.
                Best example is Radagast. Why does he attack me if we meet? I'm not that deep into the LotR myth but as I know he is far from being an aggressive man.
                I could imagine him as a neutral (or even friendly) creature in the game but not as an opponent (even though having him probably brings more variety into the opponent list than one more orc or demon unique would).

                Comment

                • fph
                  Veteran
                  • Apr 2009
                  • 1030

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Adam
                  Best example is Radagast. Why does he attack me if we meet? I'm not that deep into the LotR myth but as I know he is far from being an aggressive man.
                  I could imagine him as a neutral (or even friendly) creature in the game but not as an opponent
                  What makes you think you're one of the good guys?
                  --
                  Dive fast, die young, leave a high-CHA corpse.

                  Comment

                  • Derakon
                    Prophet
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 9022

                    #24
                    Originally posted by fph
                    What makes you think you're one of the good guys?
                    It's a natural assumption for any player unless they're explicitly set up as a villain. I agree that Radagast feels out of place, as would be, say, Gandalf or Frodo.

                    Comment

                    • Ingwe Ingweron
                      Veteran
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 2129

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Derakon
                      It's a natural assumption for any player unless they're explicitly set up as a villain. I agree that Radagast feels out of place, as would be, say, Gandalf or Frodo.
                      Those who are evil, never think they are evil. The most murderous "monster" in the game is the "@". Killing good townsfolk, pet dogs, ainu istari, and evil orcs, trolls, and demons, alike. More than a serial killer or mass murderer, @ is a downright harbinger of death. The worst nightmare for both good and evil. And who isn't tempted to don The One Ring or Morgoth's Crown? Step aside Morgoth, there's a New Dark Lord in town!!!
                      “We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
                      ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

                      Comment

                      • Monkey Face
                        Adept
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 244

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Ingwe Ingweron
                        More than a serial killer or mass murderer, @ is a downright harbinger of death.
                        I just thought of a potential challenge. You can only attack monsters that are awake and can do damage to you. Also, you can't attack stationary monsters unless they have a ranged attack. Finally, if something is fleeing you, you have to wait until it regains its courage. That way you are only attacking monsters that are directly trying to kill you.

                        Comment

                        • Sky
                          Veteran
                          • Oct 2016
                          • 2321

                          #27
                          Im on the same boat. Radagast should not be an enemy; iirc he was mentioned to be "slightly mad" but he's closer to an ally than a villain. And yes, we expect to be the good guy.
                          I'm actually perplexed that there is no message when you wear Morgoth's crown ...

                          Fighting Chronos or Pazuzu isn't much of a deal breaker, but they could be renamed into some dragons, if you want to make this 100% tolkien based, without losing any mobs.

                          Regarding @'s behaviour in town, its because someone dwcided to make these mobs non-passive ...
                          (Besides, hes really killing what, thieves and violent mercenaries. Plus the occasional vagabond. A favour to society, if you ask me.)
                          "i can take this dracolich"

                          Comment

                          • Egavactip
                            Swordsman
                            • Mar 2012
                            • 442

                            #28
                            There is not enough variety in Tolkien's world for a game that needs variety like Angband. Also, Angband has been around long enough to "deserve" its own creatures. So I welcome the "others."

                            Comment

                            • Pete Mack
                              Prophet
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 6883

                              #29
                              But also aimless merchants, happy drunks, and retired veterans.
                              Originally posted by Sky
                              Regarding @'s behaviour in town, its because someone dwcided to make these mobs non-passive ...
                              (Besides, hes really killing what, thieves and violent mercenaries. Plus the occasional vagabond. A favour to society, if you ask me.)

                              Comment

                              • Philip
                                Knight
                                • Jul 2009
                                • 909

                                #30
                                I would like to note that killing street urchins is literally child murder.

                                Comment

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