Randarts, again

[Nick]

A quick post to try and get a bit further on randart design.

Currently there is an object power algorithm; every object gets a power. It is used to get shop prices, and to value randarts. Randart generation (except for lights and jewellery) works by taking a standard artifact, working out its power, then trying to construct a completely new artifact with the same power by adding properties (chosen so as to try and mimic the spread of abilities on the standard artifacts).

Questions:

• Should we decouple power for prices and power for randarts?
• Should weapons and armour be treated differently in the power calculation?
• Should attacking power (dice, to-dam, slays, etc) and defensive power (resists, ac etc) be treated separately?
• Are there any other obvious fundamental changes to be made?

It should be emphasised that all these calculations have a lot of "constants" (ie fudge factors) in them to make the numbers accord with what feels right; this question is more on the deeper structure of how the whole thing works than on tweaking the numbers.

[Estie]

1. Decoupling: I think shop prices are almost irrelevant compared to artifact powers; I would work on the latter, assign shop prices as a function of the resulting power values and only decouple if somehow prices behave in a way you really cant live with.

2-3. My approach would be to not make value dependant on slot. We have a structure in modifiers, for example, armor can easily get resists, gloves combat boni and boots speed. To keep this structure intact, assign probabilities differently; for example, armor, gloves and boots could pick up their favoured mods with 80% probability and unfavoured ones with 10% (tweak values to taste).

What would you gain by assigning slot dependant values ?

You would better preserve the value of the single artifact. For example, Ringil is valuable because it has a speed modifier in a non-speed slot (weapon); it can easily turn into junk if that speed modifier gets morphed into an equivalent amount of stats and resists, but not if you take slots into account. Likewise, Azaghal can become great if its fire immunity is turned into speed. So Ringils value number would be higher in a system that takes slots into consideration, while Azaghal would be lower.
As a whole, the sets would look the same though, so I dont see why this would be desirable since taking slots into consideration makes the system less resistant to game changes.

As for other fundamental changes, make AC valuable and uncap stats (:

[Nivra]

No.
Yes.
Yes, this follows from the above.
I like Estie's idea of probability of bonus type based on slot.

[Nick]

There is already a small amount of slot dependence. There is also considerable weight given (in terms of what gets allocated, rather than power) on where things usually appear - so, for example, gloves are more likely to get FA.

I'm currently leaning toward not making major changes yet, but rather just continuing to simplify and clarify.

[Sky]

I have the impression that currently randarts are all about finding that one broken OP item and make do with the rest.
Either make them less random ( less variance on the default stats; so ringil can be +12 speed, azgal can be acid immune), or build a pool of powers that the artis can fish from - so you can't have ringil, cubragol AND gloves with +10 speed.

Ex: the longbow of whoops! X6, +2 fire rate, (+0, +30) +10 speed. + some useless curse thats irrelevant and easily broken.

Also in my last game i found two items which were apparently both based on BT, as they offered an endless list of resists, but due to the low AC they were relatively low in power level and easily found.

[AmyBSOD]

Personally, I'd love it if there was an option to have both the standard set of artifacts and an equivalent set of randarts based on them in the game, at the same time. And yeah, I'd second Estie's idea of having a low chance of "off-slot" modifiers (speed on a weapon, free action on a helmet etc.) so every once in a while you can find interesting stuff. It would also be great to transfer that system to ToME 2.3.5's randarts, which are mostly boring because e.g. there, all you ever find on a randart weapon is slays and brands but never other interesting things like resistances...

[Nomad]

Also in my last game i found two items which were apparently both based on BT, as they offered an endless list of resists, but due to the low AC they were relatively low in power level and easily found.

Maybe randart generation should try to roughly match the "level" of the base object used for the original artefact, or at least split off top-level base items into their own group? e.g. Since Bladeturner is based on Power DSM, an artefact derived from it should grab from the pool of Great Weapons and higher DSMs, rather than sticking a Bladeturner-equivalent host of properties on some leather armour.

Alternatively, I guess there's the approach of ignoring the base object completely: e.g., when you're evaluating Bladeturner's power level as an artefact, strip out all the properties that are already inherent to ordinary PDSM and only assess the value of the extra properties it has; then when you pick a new base object and try to raise it up to equivalent power, ignore any inherent properties that item brings to the table as well. (Which I guess is an approach that would require the decoupling from the pricing algorithm Nick suggests.)

[Philip]

I have the impression that currently randarts are all about finding that one broken OP item and make do with the rest.

I've never found an artifact that would be that great. Off-weapon +blows and shots is off, so I don't think there's anything left that I would call OP. Keep in mind, randart power is based on artifact power. Sure, randart Ringil is great, but so is Ringil.

*snip*

Also in my last game i found two items which were apparently both based on BT, as they offered an endless list of resists, but due to the low AC they were relatively low in power level and easily found.

That's not really how artifacts are currently generated, AFAICT. One base artifact -> one randart. Calculations based on power and slot, but not on original abilities. AC isn't valued that highly, and even if it were, the power level is based only on the calculated power level of BT. I'm not certain what rarity is based on, but I think it's the rarity of the original artifact, and takes into account base object generation chance.

As for the four questions:
1) Doesn't matter, shops are trivial.
2) Sort of. Slots aren't created equal, because of base objects and egos, which should be taken into account for calculations. Also, see below.
3) Yes, offensive powers belong on weapons and should be more valuable on armor, defensive powers belong on armor and should be more valuable on weapons (but somewhat less so, in keeping with how objects behave).
4) Possibly. Are randarts going to get themes? There are arguments both ways - it makes them more like standarts, which is what people use randarts to get away from. On the other hand, it means they make more sense.

Concerning themes, I was thinking of two ways to handle it. Either each randart (or some of them) gets a theme at the start of generation, and they're more likely to get powers from that theme. Or you have powers that become more or less likely to get added according to the powers that are already on the artifact. I think they'd play out pretty similarly.

[Sky]

In that same game i *possibly* found ringil, longsword +10 speed, but it had no slays, 2d6 +11 damage (260/turn compared to 560/turn). I did not use it.

The thing is, some combinations are strong, some are bad. High dmg dice + slay evil is good, same with slay animal is bad. Boots with acid immunity but no speed, not endgame gear. +shots AND +power = OP.
I had armor, gloves, and amulet all with +dmg, so i could melee pretty much anything short of bone golems and gw.law .

If you want this, keep randarts random. If you want a more balanced game, make rendarts more like the default.

[Derakon]

In that same game i *possibly* found ringil, longsword +10 speed, but it had no slays, 2d6 +11 damage (260/turn compared to 560/turn).

Again, this is not how randarts work. Randarts do not pull any specific abilities from their source artifacts, with the sole exception of light sources replicating the activated abilities from their source randarts. Each standart gets boiled down to a single number, its power, and then a randart is constructed that aims for roughly the same power. That's it. Your longsword might have been the Glaive of Pain or Thorin or the Ring of Barahir or whatever.

[Nick]

Randarts and standarts alongside each other, consider power of base items - maybe I should just swap in the FAangband randart generator

[Sky]

I thought randarts were the same as the "modify object" wizard command, where they take an object and reroll the stats as a deviation, so the first few rerolls are essentially the same object.

Anyway, the idea doesn't change, if randarts are allowed to be truly random you will get more broken games than not, going either way.

Look at the default set. It's built to be balanced. If randomness winds up allowing a set with speed on every slot, or with +dmg on every slot, or multiple Mban activations, that's gonna be a broken game.

I think the game ought to recognize major artifacts and preserve their "essence"; so for example, Gorlim is a head slot that gives +dmg. Randart Gorlim could be a light, or an amulet, but you shouldn't be able to get a Gorlim-like item on your head AND amulet.
Otherwise it's like playing vanilla but with a ring of power in every gear slot.

[Philip]

I would dispute your balance issue. The current set allows someone to get 15 speed from shoes, cover literally every resist with one body armor, get +10 +10 on their gloves, get various protections (including pStun) from hats, get 2 immunities even without the One Ring, generous pluses to all stats, speed, and +to_hit +to_dam from their rings, and if they really need the extra speed, a +10 speed, 4d5, Slay Evil and Cold Brand, +22 +25 longsword (so full blows, easily), you can choose between generous stats and ImmAcid and +5 +5 on your shield. Your cloak can fill any ability hole (pBlnd, pConf, Telepathy) you may somehow have, your amulet can fill any other thing, and also give you some +to_hit and +to_dam. All in all, I suspect it comes out to about +35 speed, all resists, 3 immunities (hey, Eol gloves can give you ImmFire if you really need 4), generous damage boosts, all positive abilities, and all important stats maxed, and quite likely the unimportant ones too. That's not "balanced", that's ridiculously overpowered.

You'll never find all these, especially several Rings of Power and Bladeturner. You'll never find all the randarts either though.

Furthermore, +speed in every slot is entirely pointless. Back in the balance-less days I ran a Hobbit Mage, who would have been capable of +71 speed hasted, because speed rings, DSM of speed and all the various fun ways to get speed. It was pointless though, because the marginal utility of speed over +40 is nil. The purpose of speed up to +30 is to avoid double-moves and to increase damage. The purpose of speed above +30 is to increase damage very very slightly and to mitigate the possibility of a Morgoth brainsmash. There is no real point to having more than +40 speed Hasted. +dmg on every slot is funny, but all it really does is make fights shorter and breath damage go down faster, both of which save consumables. Consumables are everywhere in Vanilla now. I guess it also does potentially ward off deaths through incompetence. Multiple Mban activations are great for running around the dungeon and looting Graveyards, but it doesn't do anything you couldn't do with _Banish and ?MBanish. It doesn't save you from having to save up on ?MBanish, because you'll want those for Morgoth.

The way randarts could break the game is by making some abilities unreasonably hard to find, but I'm pretty sure there are failsafes to prevent that. Also, rNether is pretty hard to find in the standard set, so it's not unprecedented.

Also, you still don't understand how randarts work. Putting +to_dam on a non-glove slot is pretty rare for the randart generator. I'd wager whoever played with slot allocation tried to put it as close to the current system as possible. The purpose of randarts is not to make them random, it's to make them unpredictable.

For the essence, I would like to note that Gorlim is not the only off-glove slot that gives +dmg. But more importantly, while I actually suggested themes for artifacts, if you make all the randarts analogues of the standarts, you're bringing back the problem randarts were supposed to solve, which was endgame gear always looking exactly the same.

[Sky]

Ugh... but, it's going to be like that .. no? The player will actively try to get the same, all resists, all immunity, max speed set with any randart set.
Im on my phone now, but i will try to explain myself better later.

[Sky]

First thing, artifact power. Let's look at Deathwrecker, arguably the best weapon in the game, or nearly.
Plus 6 str, plus 6 tunnelling- both are uselessto your TYPICAL warrior build, having str already maxed. Slay evil is the only real brand you need, because the base damage is already huge and most big mobs are already evill anyway. This means that a weapon like this will generate with a lower power, making it easier to find.
A lot of weapons in angband have activations and additional powers which are rarely useful, and i suspect, specifically chosen to balance the weapon.
Sting for example has +2 attacks ... imagine if that goes on a high damage weapon. With sting you cap at around 480, on a MoD you would be around 700.

Gauntlets of eol has immunity, but no +dmg, so you need to trade that with cambleg. Stormwalker has also immunity, but no +10 speed. Gorlim doesnt have telepathy.
Most artifacts are NOT MINMAXED, except a few which have super-high power level.

In a randart game, you just need to look for those 2-3 broken items which are minmaxed and easy to find too, like a gauntlet +dmg AND speed, or immunity.

You say you want to avoid players having identical endgame gear, so i ask you: what do you mean? Do you want players to have less than perfect resists, less than 30 speed, less than 600 dmg?

Because having different gear just to be different isn't really an issue. Everyone will try to build the same endgame character, if you end up having your Fingolfin on your feet and your Stormwalker on your hands you haven't really solved that problem.