Optional wilderness as birth option

[AmyBSOD]

Since ToME2 development has stopped a couple of years ago,

There are several actively developed ToME2 branches, including ToME2-ah by AnonymousHero, and ToME-SX by myself. You might want to check them out.

[PowerWyrm]

I can only recall two exceptions, namely the semi-recent removal of all traps (uninteresting mechanic) and the removal of Alchemy (hopelessly broken).

Alchemy in ToME is not broken, it's simply bugged. Whenever you create an artifact, you spend points to add abilities, which require more and more points to add them. Unless you're willing to spend ages scumming for those points, they will be limited, so you'll get a perfectly balanced artifact. The only problem is... the best abilities (extra attacks on weapons and extra mana capacity on staves) cost ZERO points to add, so you can add them indefinitely and get an artifact with +65535 attacks or +65535% mana capacity. Fix that, and you basically un-broke Alchemy.

[Derakon]

Alchemy in ToME is not broken, it's simply bugged. Whenever you create an artifact, you spend points to add abilities, which require more and more points to add them. Unless you're willing to spend ages scumming for those points, they will be limited, so you'll get a perfectly balanced artifact. The only problem is... the best abilities (extra attacks on weapons and extra mana capacity on staves) cost ZERO points to add, so you can add them indefinitely and get an artifact with +65535 attacks or +65535% mana capacity. Fix that, and you basically un-broke Alchemy.

The inherent problem of "grind to make awesome gear" still remains. Alchemy needs to not have artifact creation, at bare minimum, before it's a reasonable concept.

[AnonymousHero]

I like the wilderness levels in Faangband very much (maybe even more in the current default condensed version) and I think they are quite thematic..

I don't actually have anything against the levels per se, it's just that it doesn't really feel like a wilderness -- I get this feeling of "claustropobia" or having guard rails in that you're basically forced to use exactly the exits (i.e. "<" or ">") that are provided inside the level rather than just walking off the edge of the map.

[Mondkalb]

I don't actually have anything against the levels per se, it's just that it doesn't really feel like a wilderness -- I get this feeling of "claustropobia" or having guard rails in that you're basically forced to use exactly the exits (i.e. "<" or ">") that are provided inside the level rather than just walking off the edge of the map.

I don't know whether that would be possible with the engine.
At least the exits are usually on roads, so one could argue that they are like pathways through the landscape and the permanent walls symbolize unsurmountable natural obstacles.

[AnonymousHero]

I don't know whether that would be possible with the engine.
At least the exits are usually on roads, so one could argue that they are like pathways through the landscape and the permanent walls symbolize unsurmountable natural obstacles.

Right, it's definitely defensible as a game mechanic, it just feels wrong to me. :shrug:

(EDIT: Hah, had a shug unicode emoji thing there at the end. Turns out it works fine when you post, but doesn't work when editing the post.)

[Nick]

I don't actually have anything against the levels per se, it's just that it doesn't really feel like a wilderness -- I get this feeling of "claustropobia" or having guard rails in that you're basically forced to use exactly the exits (i.e. "<" or ">") that are provided inside the level rather than just walking off the edge of the map.

What you want is Beleriand wilderness, then

[AnonymousHero]

What you want is Beleriand wilderness, then

It seemed really interesting -- and, in fact IIRC, similar to how T2 does it[1] -- are you still working on it?

[1] You were using fractal generation, right?

[Nick]

It seemed really interesting -- and, in fact IIRC, similar to how T2 does it[1] -- are you still working on it?

[1] You were using fractal generation, right?

I was basically using similar methods to the FA wilderness, but without the borders - the entire Beleriand map was split into little chunks (this is a rough idea). Also there was no zoomed overworld map, so the plan was to have other means of speeding long-distance travel.

I have not worked on it since taking over as V maintainer - hence my occasional comments about who might want to take over that task at some point

[droof]

It's ambling along very slowly, but it's not quite dead yet. Whether you regard my fork as "legitimate" is up to you.

Nice! I played that version from day one. Checked out the master and built it, because tome2/tome2 sounded legit. I didn't know it wasn't legit. Or it is. I don't know, but I'm really enjoying your version, thank you!

There are several actively developed ToME2 branches, including ToME2-ah by AnonymousHero, and ToME-SX by myself. You might want to check them out.

So that's what -ah stands for. I'll try the SX version some time later as well.

Is the first ToME2 town supposed to be all dark when coming back up from the first dungeon at night? It's hard to navigate the town like that. I just sleep a couple of thousand turns and wait for daylight before moving around again.

Googling Beleriand, I found the git and checked it out. I guess from that project and FAangband that Nick is the Wilderness expert here? Not trying to flatter, just checking out massive project resources like region.txt and FA.

I like the larger world idea from ToME mostly because of the starting parchment telling me my current and next options and what to look forward to in which directions. I don't know the world yet, but I want to make that journey. Also the first town and dungeon environments look colorful in ASCII unlike traditional black & white like rogue / moria / angband / nethack. I hope I'll see other themes in other regions. Really every Angband variant I've tried so far does theming, only vanilla Angband stays conservative with its terrain as far as I've made it. I suppose that's because it has a large committee to answer to and variants can be opinionated?

So an overworld wilderness is not for Angband, the game being a linear dungeon dive experience. And being great at it. Maybe instead a FAangband-style closed "wilderness dungeon level" at some point could work as some of the 100 Angband levels without changing its core gameplay, but that's probably already been thought of.

Being a roguelike maintainer must take a lot of effort, where do you find the time for such a spare time commitment?

[Nick]

Googling Beleriand, I found the git and checked it out. I guess from that project and FAangband that Nick is the Wilderness expert here? Not trying to flatter, just checking out massive project resources like region.txt and FA.

I wouldn't call myself expert, exactly - I have poured a lot of time into it, though

So an overworld wilderness is not for Angband, the game being a linear dungeon dive experience. And being great at it. Maybe instead a FAangband-style closed "wilderness dungeon level" at some point could work as some of the 100 Angband levels without changing its core gameplay, but that's probably already been thought of.

One of the FAangband game modes is "hybrid dungeon", which has elements of what you're describing. NPPangband also has wilderness-like levels within a linear dungeon.

Being a roguelike maintainer must take a lot of effort, where do you find the time for such a spare time commitment?

Personally, it's what I do to relax - so all I need to do is find time to relax

[AnonymousHero]

I like the larger world idea from ToME mostly because of the starting parchment telling me my current and next options and what to look forward to in which directions. I don't know the world yet, but I want to make that journey.

This is a really interesting point. I recall having a very similar feeling when getting the first "hint" on picking up an item in T2[1]. I was promptly starved to death by a Floating Eye in on in Barrow-Downs L1, but I was hooked by that initial "you might want to try this" thing. Of course, at some later point I discovered LordDimwit's guide and couldn't help myself and was thoroughly spoiled. I think it's interesting to note that an item (the "Guide") which is invaluable and a "hook" to a new player almost immediatly becomes a junk item. Perhaps there should be a "player-wide" rule about these not being generated more than, say, 5 times (regardless of which character you're playing).

[1] It was my first ever roguelike game. I can't even remember how I even came across it.

[AnonymousHero]

Being a roguelike maintainer must take a lot of effort, where do you find the time for such a spare time commitment?

I'm sort of like Nick, I suppose. It's quite relaxing in that (for me, at least) it's mostly just about janitorial work -- moving code around, trying to make it more malleable to hopefully be able to implement future $GREAT_IDEA (that may never come).

It's also great to hear from people who enjoy what I've done, so thank you for that! Though, most of the credit probably goes to DarkGod & co. who basically shaped most of the game that I try to maintain

[droof]

I have not worked on it since taking over as V maintainer - hence my occasional comments about who might want to take over that task at some point

Please help me understand this. I'm probably going to ask the dumbest question so far, but I'd like to know.

You've created both FAangband and Beleriand probably with a specific vision of what those variants should be. If anyone would take over as maintainer, wouldn't that mean a different vision and as a result the variants could change in unexpected ways? How could that work?

[debo]

Please help me understand this. I'm probably going to ask the dumbest question so far, but I'd like to know.

You've created both FAangband and Beleriand probably with a specific vision of what those variants should be. If anyone would take over as maintainer, wouldn't that mean a different vision and as a result the variants could change in unexpected ways? How could that work?

I think he meant his comments on other folks taking over Vanilla at some point.