Trap/door feature branch

[Pete Mack]

If you want good detection as a warrior, play rogue. Warriors simply can't expect to avoid monsters via detection until they get a suitable magic device or ESP. There are ways to partially work around this, but bottom line, warriors need teleportation. (Rod of Light, Illumination, good infravision.)

[PowerWyrm]

I think you've missed here that searching/perception has now gone. Traps and secret doors are automatically noticed on walking next to them.

Hmm what's the purpose of traps then? Or did you also remove trap disarming?

[Nick]

Hmm what's the purpose of traps then? Or did you also remove trap disarming?

They're positioned so they're in the way more often, and disarming carries the risk of setting off the trap.

[Chud]

An interesting behavior I believe I noticed, playing the most recent nightly master -- early in the game, picked up a normal shield (no runes indicated, anyway). Later it was damaged by acid, and thereby acquired an unknown rune, which of course turned out to be enchantment to armor, as the shield was now [2, -1].

I guess the acid etched the rune into the shield. :-) Those fireflies have really good control!

Also (unrelatedly), targeting a spell at 'closest' (using ' ) targeted a creeping coins before I had discovered it to be a monster.

EDIT: Sorry, disregard this one. It targeted a monster behind it and happened to hit the coins along the way.

[Nomad]

Just spotted that I messed up the layout of one of the rooms in the room_template file when I added the traps. Here's the fixed version:

[Rowan]

A few thoughts:

In a world with both magic and secret doors, magic will be created to find secret doors. Necessity is the mother of invention. This also applies to traps.

The idea of a "detect doors" spell working only on mundane doors makes it a useless spell. Why would anyone need to magically detect a door they can find by... looking at it...? That's why in D&D "Detect Secret Doors" is a spell that exists while "Detect The Door I Can See In Front Of Me" is not.

On the subject of no more detect-traps, now traps become visible when adjacent- isn't the fundamental point of a trap to catch or harm the unwary, i.e. not being seen ahead of time? I don't agree with the auto-visibility thing. But then that, of course, makes magical detection necessary again.

I like the idea of causing traps to be placed more intelligently- that's a great idea. But I don't think the solution to detection-tedium is to erase it and make traps auto-visible.

Please bear with me- I'm trying to catch up on 16 pages of opinions, conversations, branch changes being made and unmade, so I'm a little dizzy with information. To the best of my knowledge, this stuff hasn't been solved yet, so I post.

[Rowan]

I knew I forgot something!

Someone suggested a spell that would teleport to a chosen square within a small range. What comes of this idea? Currently there's just short- and long-range random teleportation, but it would be amazing to have a high level spell that would give targeted teleport (maybe just within line of sight?).

[Derakon]

I won't address your opinions on hidden traps, because that's well-covered ground by now.

I knew I forgot something!

Someone suggested a spell that would teleport to a chosen square within a small range. What comes of this idea? Currently there's just short- and long-range random teleportation, but it would be amazing to have a high level spell that would give targeted teleport (maybe just within line of sight?).

Targeted teleport is an insanely powerful spell, even when constrained to line-of-sight. The ability to move from point A to point B without occupying the intervening space, and therefore without leaving yourself open to attacks from monsters that can see said intervening space, is probably too powerful to give to the player.

Mm, maybe if it only came in the form of scrolls or portions, and rarely at that. It might be nice to have a high-level teleportation consumable. Absolutely not as a spell that spellcasters could cast at will, not even if it cost 100SP (because Potions of Restore Mana exist).

[Rowan]

I won't address your opinions on hidden traps, because that's well-covered ground by now.

Fair enough, if you don't feel like discussing it further. Though after reading the thread, my understanding of the discussion boils down to

"Magical Trap Detection is tedious and should be removed."
"This makes traps a bigger risk, so let's make them auto-visible when you get close."
"Ok. Hey let's also place the traps more intelligently."
"Good idea."
"Hey, I miss magical trap detection! Put it back the way it was!"
"No."

Sure, I was just presenting yet another argument in favor of bringing back trap detection, but in-world it stands to reason trap detection would exist. Further, I get the impression the trap situation really hasn't been completely solved yet anyway, whether or not there's detection.

I feel like my comment about secret-door-detection is still valid, even if the discussion about trap detection is a closed subject.

Targeted teleport is an insanely powerful spell, even when constrained to line-of-sight.

I think it could be creatively limited, though. Maybe it makes a loud bang that wakes up nearby monsters. Maybe it uses up a full turn (ala D&D) so all the monsters get to act once you arrive. And yes, it would effectively be the highest level teleport spell, only found in rare books, very expensive on SP, very high chance of failure. Hell, there could even be a strong argument for a limited confusion-effect when you arrive and get your bearings. It could be done, I think, and could be a lot of fun. But if Nick doesn't think it's viable or there just isn't the interest, I get that too. Just seemed like a great idea when it came up, but it never really got addressed.

[Nick]

In a world with both magic and secret doors, magic will be created to find secret doors. Necessity is the mother of invention. This also applies to traps.

The idea of a "detect doors" spell working only on mundane doors makes it a useless spell. Why would anyone need to magically detect a door they can find by... looking at it...? That's why in D&D "Detect Secret Doors" is a spell that exists while "Detect The Door I Can See In Front Of Me" is not.

On the subject of no more detect-traps, now traps become visible when adjacent- isn't the fundamental point of a trap to catch or harm the unwary, i.e. not being seen ahead of time? I don't agree with the auto-visibility thing. But then that, of course, makes magical detection necessary again.

I like the idea of causing traps to be placed more intelligently- that's a great idea. But I don't think the solution to detection-tedium is to erase it and make traps auto-visible.

In D&D, there aren't infinity traps and secret doors available just from going up and down a stair, so it is much more feasible for every occurrence to be meaningful. Transforming D&D-inspired mechanics into something that works in a computer game is not going to result in an exact copy, because they are two very different types of game.

[AnonymousHero]

I think it could be creatively limited, though. Maybe it makes a loud bang that wakes up nearby monsters. Maybe it uses up a full turn (ala D&D) so all the monsters get to act once you arrive. And yes, it would effectively be the highest level teleport spell, only found in rare books, very expensive on SP, very high chance of failure.

No. Just no.

ToME 2.x has targeted teleport if you Possess an appropriate corpse (an example, some other classes get it too). Someone once descended 30 levels in the Nether Realms/Void by "abusing" targeted teleport on levels which a) are only populated by dragons/demons, aka. summoners and breathers, and b) are devoid of any walls, i.e. everything has LoS immediately, and c) has no air, which means constant (pretty hefty) damage every single turn. Said player may have abused other things, but targeted teleport was what made the whole endeavor even remotely feasible. All of this with ~1000HP, btw.

[spara]

I just started playing again after not playing for a while. A couple of quick notes.

Now that there are so many traps, some kind of trap knowledge would be nice. And of course tiles would be much appreciated for the new traps.

The new secret doors don't feel quite right. It feels like something is missing from the game. It's probably just this part being very unfinished, but anyway. In essence I'm somehow missing the old ways of finding secret doors via spell or searching.

Here's a random idea. How about nerfing the old find traps and doors spell so that it only works on doors (and traps?) on line of sight?

And now that I'm on it, here's another random idea for the same price. Could the old searching skill be a radius for detecting hidden things? That way a rogue could spot a trap or a hidden door from a distance while a priest would need to stand next to them to see them.

Still enjoying the game, keep up the good work.

[Huqhox]

Here's a random idea. How about nerfing the old find traps and doors spell so that it only works on doors (and traps?) on line of sight?

And now that I'm on it, here's another random idea for the same price. Could the old searching skill be a radius for detecting hidden things? That way a rogue could spot a trap or a hidden door from a distance while a priest would need to stand next to them to see them.

They both sound like potentially good ideas - it would be interesting to test a version with these ideas included to see what it plays like. It would also make searching skill actually useful in the game

[Nomad]

Some much delayed thoughts on the latest trap branch. And by latest I mean the April 30th nightly. (I finally resorted to cheating to be able to see all the new traps. I'm not a good enough player to test things that appear below level 40!)

Trap branch bugs:

• No big deal, since tiles will need to be redone when the new traps are finalised anyway, but some of the current tile assignments are wrong - you see the trapdoor tile for the summon monsters rune and the pit trap tile for summon undead and summon dragons.

Other unrelated bugs:

• I'm guessing this one dates back to the player knowledge changes: if you save and quit and then reload (on Windows, at least), floor objects you were previously aware of but that are outside of LoS are no longer shown on the map, and you have to detect again to relocate them.
• The changes to staff/wand ID have had knock-on effects on other types of items: things like scrolls of Door Destruction and potions of Slime Mold Juice no longer auto-ID on first use.

Thoughts on the new trap types:

• The new summoning traps are fine; I feel like there should be a "summon demon" variant too.
• Blinding flash trap is also good - how about an equivalent darkness trap as well?
• Not sure splitting alarm traps into separate wake and aggravate effects works all that well. They don't really feel sufficiently distinct from the player's POV, and I'm not sure the wake-without-aggravating variant is really adding anything.
• The rock fall trap is improved by dropping rubble, but I feel like it should do it every time instead of just occasionally. (Also, maybe it should cause stunning too?)
• Could the mana drain trap have some sort of additional secondary effect so it's not completely harmless to warriors? (EXP drain or amnesia maybe, or a status effect like stunning/slowing?)
• Like the knife trap! Needs to be a different colour, though, I can't really tell that shade of red apart from the darts.
• The area blast trap is another good one, but currently you get spammed with individual "The wall turns into mud!" messages for every bit of wall it destroys, which is pretty annoying.
• The petrifying trap doesn't really work, IMO. I don't think fear and stoneskin go together very well, and the fear effect just wears off far too fast. Maybe make a separate fear (or terror?) gas trap with longer-lasting effects, and/or pair Stoneskin up with a different status effect like poison or stunning?

Additional trivial and nit-picky opinions about trap names:

• Maybe "siren" rather than "horn trap"?
• "summon rune" sounds clunky when the game uses it in sentences - I think it should be "summoning rune". (And personally I'd favour "rune of summoning" over both, but that's purely stylistic.)
• Also, both the "summon OoD monster" and "summon 2+1d3 monsters" variants currently have the same name. How about "rune of summon monster/foe" vs. "rune of summoning"?
• "call from the grave trap" is a bit of a mouthful - how about "rune of necromancy"? And "dragonsong trap" should probably be "dragonsong rune" to fit the rune theme.
• Still not a fan of "dungeon alteration trap" - it just sounds too 'gamey' and more like an in-code description than a thematic one. How about "destruct/destruction trap" or "ancient mechanism"?

And finally, somewhat overlapping with suggestions above, some obvious gaps in the range of existing traps that could make logical additions:

• Rune of summon demon(s)
• INT and WIS loss darts
• Fear gas
• Hallucination gas
• Darkness trap
• Traps that do frost or lightning damage

(I do still want to have a go at developing some more complicated multi-effect traps myself, but I've been sidetracked by various things at present.)

[Derakon]

Could the mana drain trap have some sort of additional secondary effect so it's not completely harmless to warriors? (EXP drain or amnesia maybe, or a status effect like stunning/slowing?)

I disagree. Warriors need some reason to feel smugly superior to all the other classes. Let's throw 'em a bone.