Trap/door feature branch

[Nick]

OK, latest master from the nightlies page (when it appears) will incorporate the new traps branch, including the fix to Nomad's crash bug.

I think trap detection still needs some work - probably only have it as part of Detection and Clairvoyance.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I think trap detection still needs some work - probably only have it as part of Detection and Clairvoyance.

So priests gain an advantage and mages (the most fragile class until very late in the game) get screwed?

[calris]

I think trap detection still needs some work - probably only have it as part of Detection and Clairvoyance.

I'm playing a Human Warrior, and rods of Trap Location and rods of Door/Stair Location seems pretty much pointless. The Door/Stair Location in particular - it only detects non-hidden doors which is kind of pointless. Object, Treasure, and Monster detection are way more useful.

To be honest, I wouldn't care if magical detection of traps and doors was scraped completely and a new rod of Monster Detection created with low dungeon level, high fail rate, long recharge time. Make it so it doesn't detect invisible creatures and remove scrolls and staves of Detect Invisible. So basically, magical detection through scrolls, spells, staves, rods, etc. never exposes hidden things. Things that change @'s innate abilities (potions and equipment of see invisible, rings of searching, etc.) are what allow @ to find/see hidden things.

[Nick]

So priests gain an advantage and mages (the most fragile class until very late in the game) get screwed?

It is a pretty minuscule advantage - I was thinking of it more being a slight flavor thing for the most powerful forms of detection. Maybe just give it to potions of *Enlightenment*.

And don't worry, in 4.2 all the classes will get screwed

I'm playing a Human Warrior, and rods of Trap Location and rods of Door/Stair Location seems pretty much pointless. The Door/Stair Location in particular - it only detects non-hidden doors which is kind of pointless. Object, Treasure, and Monster detection are way more useful.

To be honest, I wouldn't care if magical detection of traps and doors was scraped completely and a new rod of Monster Detection created with low dungeon level, high fail rate, long recharge time. Make it so it doesn't detect invisible creatures and remove scrolls and staves of Detect Invisible. So basically, magical detection through scrolls, spells, staves, rods, etc. never exposes hidden things. Things that change @'s innate abilities (potions and equipment of see invisible, rings of searching, etc.) are what allow @ to find/see hidden things.

This is an interesting way of thinking about it.

Originally I took out all the Trap and Door/Stair Location objects, but the lack of stair detection hurt the diving playstyle a bit, and Stair Detection might be a bit pathetic as a standalone spell/object. But maybe not.

Probably a bit of a rethink of detection is in order, but maybe it is better done in 4.2 when classes are up for grabs.

I'd really appreciate some more opinions and discussion on this.

[calris]

Originally I took out all the Trap and Door/Stair Location objects, but the lack of stair detection hurt the diving playstyle a bit, and Stair Detection might be a bit pathetic as a standalone spell/object. But maybe not.

A few thoughts

• Keep Door/Stair location, but scrap trap detection and anything that 'detects' hidden things like traps, secret doors, and invisible monsters. My basic thought is, if you can't see it with your eyes, you shouldn't be able to detect it with your mind. ESP of course is an exception as it 'sees' intelligence.
• Make potions of See Invisible _slightly_ more common to compensate for the loss of scrolls and staves
• Perhaps add a 'Potion of Perception' which increases your search skill (would probably need the effect to last for a decent length of time) - These would be useful to pop just before entering a vault where stepping on a trap door is going to be really heart sinking.
• Give mages and priests spells to increase searching/perception - something like 'Focused Observation' and 'Divine Perception'
• I'm thinking that non-magic users could have a 'Searching' ability that significantly increases their search skill, but might, for example, give them a -5 speed penalty. So if your in a vault, you can work you way through it carefully, at the expense of being ambushed
• Maybe have the speed penalty vary based on class - Rogues have extremely low penalty, Warriors at the high end - Maybe give the ability to Mages and Priests, but make the penalty significantly more

[Nick]

• Perhaps add a 'Potion of Perception' which increases your search skill (would probably need the effect to last for a decent length of time) - These would be useful to pop just before entering a vault where stepping on a trap door is going to be really heart sinking.
• Give mages and priests spells to increase searching/perception - something like 'Focused Observation' and 'Divine Perception'
• I'm thinking that non-magic users could have a 'Searching' ability that significantly increases their search skill, but might, for example, give them a -5 speed penalty. So if your in a vault, you can work you way through it carefully, at the expense of being ambushed
• Maybe have the speed penalty vary based on class - Rogues have extremely low penalty, Warriors at the high end - Maybe give the ability to Mages and Priests, but make the penalty significantly more

I think you've missed here that searching/perception has now gone. Traps and secret doors are automatically noticed on walking next to them.

[calris]

I think you've missed here that searching/perception has now gone. Traps and secret doors are automatically noticed on walking next to them.

I thought that there was still a skill check for the detection, but it only occurs once?

[Nick]

I thought that there was still a skill check for the detection, but it only occurs once?

Nope, the searching and search frequency skills have been removed completely.

[calris]

Nope, the searching and search frequency skills have been removed completely.

Ah - I guess you ignore most of that previous post then

EDIT: And what, therefore, is the point of magical detection?

[Nick]

And what, therefore, is the point of magical detection?

The only point is that you can see where doors and traps are before you get to them, which may help slightly in planning. It's pretty marginal.

[calris]

And what, therefore, is the point of magical detection?

And for that matter items of Searching?

[Nick]

And for that matter items of Searching?

Yes, not removing those was on oversight.

[calris]

This whole concept of @ not having any kind of 'perception' feels a bit wrong to me. Stealth and Searching have always been stock features of RPG games... Sure we have level feelings, but they are the same for every @

I fully understand (now that I've played the Trap feature a bit more) that gameplay is a lot smoother without searching, but it feels like it is missing something, but I can't put my finger on what that 'something' is.

I'm going to throw a completely crazy idea out there... It's not related to traps, but it is related to perception...

What if, based on @'s Perception, @ got a bit of insight into the next level. So instead of having plain white staircases, we could have green, yellow, orange, and red corresponding to the combined monster/object feeling of the next level - The higher @'s perception, the more accurate the representation - with low perception, most staircases would still be white. This way, perception is a valuable asset, and the player gets to use it to choose how risky they want to play

[Nick]

This whole concept of @ not having any kind of 'perception' feels a bit wrong to me. Stealth and Searching have always been stock features of RPG games... Sure we have level feelings, but they are the same for every @

I fully understand (now that I've played the Trap feature a bit more) that gameplay is a lot smoother without searching, but it feels like it is missing something, but I can't put my finger on what that 'something' is.

I take your point, but I think we should go one step at a time.

The perception and searching mechanics in 4.0 were only used to notice traps and secret doors, and so should be removed with the changes to those. If we then feel that there should be some sort of searching in the game, we can think about what it should do and how to implement it. My feeling is that it is just a concept which doesn't translate very well into Angband as it currently stands, and I'm definitely against trying to shoe-horn something in for the sake of satisfying a vague general principle. On the other hand, I'm certainly receptive to looking at proposals for searching-related mechanics which do fit the game.

As for stealth, I am certainly planning to revamp that, along with sound propagation and monster awareness. In fact that may even require another feature branch

[calris]

My feeling is that it is just a concept which doesn't translate very well into Angband as it currently stands, and I'm definitely against trying to shoe-horn something in for the sake of satisfying a vague general principle

I agree 100% - As I said, gameplay wise, the removal of the 'find by chance' mechanic works very well

On the other hand, I'm certainly receptive to looking at proposals for searching-related mechanics which do fit the game.

Not search related - perception related. The ability for the player to make decisions based on information only available if @'s perception is high enough. In a way, this was essentially what pseudo-id was all about. A few things 'perception' could effect:

• When looking at a monster, the health bar could indicate how dangerous the monster might be
• High perception causes monster recall info to be collected faster
• Coloured stairs to indicate feeling of next level
• Detecting buried treasure deeper in wallls

As for stealth, I am certainly planning to revamp that, along with sound propagation and monster awareness. In fact that may even require another feature branch

Glad to hear stealth is on the radar - Another thing perception can impact is how far away @ can 'see' a monster - If @ has low perception and the monster has high stealth, then the monster will not be visible at a distance, whereas if @ has high perception and the monster has low stealth, @ will see the monster a lot further away.