Trap/door feature branch

[PowerWyrm]

The new branch seems a good idea. As I said, you don't need to keep magical trap detection but you should keep physical detection. Perhaps take the middle path:
- remove Trap Detection spells EXCEPT for Rogues (thematic)
- remove Trap Detection devices
- keep Detection (spells + devices) detecting traps since they're higher level and would give an alternative to physical detection

[Rydel]

[list=1]

• Make visible traps less avoidable. (Pretty difficult to achieve with Angband's many escape options.)

TomeNET has a *lot* of varied traps, and except a few ones that I don't really like (the dreaded "drop all" trap -- which inside a vault could be followed by a fire trap in the next square -- or the seasoned traveler one which decreases your stacks to 1 or 2), they add a lot to the game. And they can be deadly at level 1 as well as at level 50!

Perhaps some traps could work with the escape options - For example, a "Dimensional Sinkhole" trap, where if you attempt any form of teleportation within a certain range of the trap, it teleports you to the location of the trap instead. (This trap should probably not be allowed in vaults, for obvious reasons.) This trap would also work on monsters as well, so it makes escaping harder, but can be useful when fighting monsters that like to teleport away.

This particular trap would also be a rare instance of a trap where being alone in the middle of a room actually works well.

I do like the idea of trapped doors and stairs. Perhaps that could be turned into a deliberate feature.

[Carnivean]

Did I succeed?

You convinced me not to play a solo mage in BGII.

It is an alternative that fits the scenario, but as you say, it sucks.

Mages don't solve everything with magic. They use melee, ranged weapons, stealth, searching, disarming and potions like all the other characters.

Just because they can doesn't mean that they do. I've never used a ranged weapon as a mage. It should be possible to play the game as a pure mage, because that's how at least some of us play mages.

Even if they did I don't see why it follows that they should be able to magically detect traps if it results in boring gameplay. Are we agreed that just magically detecting traps is boring?

Of course it's boring. Are you incapable of understanding what I'm talking about? Mages should approach traps differently to rogues and to warriors, and they should be implementing magic as their means of dealing with traps. The game changes should not remove the ability of mages to deal with traps with magic alone, but should be working to be "not boring".

The new branch seems a good idea. As I said, you don't need to keep magical trap detection but you should keep physical detection. Perhaps take the middle path:
- remove Trap Detection spells EXCEPT for Rogues (thematic)
- remove Trap Detection devices
- keep Detection (spells + devices) detecting traps since they're higher level and would give an alternative to physical detection

Ok so rogues, who traditionally spot traps with their skills get a trap detection spell, but mages who use spells for everything difficult don't get such a spell? I fail to see how that is thematic at all.

Correct if detecting traps is actually a thing everyone has to do. In this branch, though, everyone automatically sees traps when close enough. Sure, mages could still have a detect traps spell, but would you bother?

Actually, that's interesting - maybe you would. Maybe (I can't believe I'm saying this) trap detection should come back, but alongside the automatic noticing of traps, so rather than a thing everyone has to do it becomes a planning ahead tool that's only used sometimes.

I'm glad something new came of my rather scattered, reactionary thoughts on the matter, even if it doesn't help in the long run.

[Nick]

Mages should approach traps differently to rogues and to warriors, and they should be implementing magic as their means of dealing with traps. The game changes should not remove the ability of mages to deal with traps with magic alone, but should be working to be "not boring".

By the end of this, all classes should have noticeably different approaches to traps.

[TJS]

Of course it's boring. Are you incapable of understanding what I'm talking about? Mages should approach traps differently to rogues and to warriors, and they should be implementing magic as their means of dealing with traps. The game changes should not remove the ability of mages to deal with traps with magic alone, but should be working to be "not boring".

Geez do you have to be so aggressive? What exactly is the point? This is usually a pretty friendly forum.

It seems you are against removing mages ability to magically detect traps and haven't suggested any other methods of mages dealing with them by magic, so I asked if you thought trap detection was boring. It was a pretty reasonable question I thought. Obviously not.

[Nick]

There are new Windows and OS X builds up for this branch.

The changes are:

• Nomad's improved template rooms with specific trap positions are included.
• Traps no longer appear on doors (I hope).
• Disarming has been reworked, so there are now magical and physical traps, and two disarming skills (which are boosted by high INT and DEX respectively). Class aptitude for disarming has been changed to fit this, so for example mages are good at disarming magical traps and poor at physical ones, and warriors are the opposite.
• There are several new traps. I encourage people to look at the traps file here, and design their own

[Pete Mack]

Nick--I still recommend checking out NPP traps! They are much more effective since they do ranged damage.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

• Disarming has been reworked, so there are now magical and physical traps, and two disarming skills (which are boosted by high INT and DEX respectively). Class aptitude for disarming has been changed to fit this, so for example mages are good at disarming magical traps and poor at physical ones, and warriors are the opposite.

Should I assume this change breaks savefile compatabilty?

[Nick]

Should I assume this change breaks savefile compatabilty?

Yes, yes you should.

Nice catch

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Any chance of getting the detection line back?

[Nomad]

• Nomad's improved template rooms with specific trap positions are included.

Doesn't look like these are being generated correctly - I'm still seeing randomly positioned traps in the special rooms. I think it just needs a few tweaks to build_room_template() in gen-room.c - get rid of this code for random traps in treasure rooms:

case '8': {

	/* Put something nice in this square
	 * Object (80%) or Stairs (20%) */
	if (randint0(100) < 80)
		place_object(c, y, x, c->depth, false, false, ORIGIN_SPECIAL, 0);
	else
		place_random_stairs(c, y, x);

	/* Some monsters to guard it */
	vault_monsters(c, y, x, c->depth + 2, randint0(2) + 3);

[bc=blue]	/* And some traps too */
	vault_traps(c, y, x, 4, 4, randint0(3) + 2);[/bc]

	break;

And add a copy of the trap-handling code from build_vault():

[bc=blue]	/* Trap */
case '^': place_trap(c, y, x, -1, c->depth); break;[/bc]

(My one tiny area of Angband code knowledge! But sadly my GitHub login is long since lost to the mists of time.)

[Nick]

Doesn't look like these are being generated correctly - I'm still seeing randomly positioned traps in the special rooms.

Yeah, that would be me forgetting to pull the random trap code out. Oops.

[Nick]

Should I assume this change breaks savefile compatabilty?

Sorry, actually it doesn't.

As for the trap detection line, it has really lost it's chief purpose; also I think that trap detection will probably end up only in Detection and Clairvoyance.

[Nick]

Nick--I still recommend checking out NPP traps! They are much more effective since they do ranged damage.

It depends on what purpose you want traps to serve. The current intent with the traps on this branch is for them to be obstacles to be overcome if the player wants to get past them - it's presenting a particular type of choice to the player. A trap that is firing from a distance represents a different type of challenge, more like a sentry or a gun-turret. Introducing something like that isn't completely out of the question, but I don't think I'd call it a trap, and I think that particular niche in the dungeon ecology is fairly well covered by monsters.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Sorry, actually it doesn't.

As for the trap detection line, it has really lost it's chief purpose; also I think that trap detection will probably end up only in Detection and Clairvoyance.

Its main purpose? For me it was a reminder to detect for monsters, objects, as well as its actual indication, traps. It also levels the playing field for those, like me, that choose to always center the map on the @. Does this mean I need to switch that off to regain the advantage of knowing that I've moved to a new quadrant and should detect again?

I'm also trying to figure out why savefile compatabity wouldn't be broken, or at least the old player is entirely screwed when it comes to traps, since the skill in the original player's race and class has been divided into two, but when rolled was only one and called under a different name. Is that not part of the savefile?