Rune-based ID

[Nivra]

I like that a lot, Nick.

[spara]

That sounds like a plan to try out, Nick.

Another note. I've got a trident of mysterious powers I'm trying to get acquainted with. The problem is that it seems that the resist/etc statuses (C-h) don't update. I've been burnt, confused and poisoned, and yes, it's possible that those go through a resist, but I doubt it, yet the status page still shows the possibility for all those resists. Also ESP is listed as one of the possibilities, yet that could safely be removed.

In short, does the status (C-h) page remove question marks from verified properties?

If it doesn't, it probably should. Would make rune hunting a bit easier for the brain.

[Nomad]

All right, two things.

1. Proposed scheme to fix having lots of gear with unknown runes:
   • Set a character level for which the ID game is over - I'm thinking 30, but it should probably be put in constants.txt
   • Calculate

     (total number of runes in the game) x (character level) / 30

     and that's the standard number of runes for a character of that level to have learned
   • If the character is below the standard number, they learn runes of wielded objects until they run out of such runes or reach the standard number
   
   So the player can learn by actual use, or by being sufficiently advanced.

Maybe some variant of this ID by clevel should be used for flavored items too.

Sounds good! Maybe instead of a single constant, you could make it a class-based value in class.txt, so that different classes master ID at different rates?

Or for an alternative scheme, how about ID on level up? Every time the character reaches a new (maximum) character level, there's a percentage chance of identifying each unknown rune or flavour on any items that they're carrying. (Maybe based on clevel+WIS for runes and clevel+INT for consumables?) That way you'd be rewarded for lugging unknown items around with you, without having to faff with wield-testing everything when you level to see if you've got any ID points left. There could be class-based level caps for the two separate ID categories, so that, say, warriors might get full auto-ID of runes at clevel 30 but have to wait till clevel 35 for auto-ID of consumables, while it's vice versa for casters and rogues get both types of auto-ID early.

[Egavactip]

How is this not going to make players waste time?

[Derakon]

How is this not going to make players waste time?

Have this discussion in one of the innumerable threads about what to do with identification. There has been more than ample opportunity and you can feel free to make a new one if you want to argue about how the game should work. This thread is about how to do rune-based ID, and I (and others I am sure) would rather it not get sidetracked.

Please understand, I'm not trying to shut you down; I'm trying to shut you down here, because this is not the right place for the conversation you're trying to have.

[Monkey Face]

I haven't tried rune based ID yet but I'm looking forward to it. I do have one question, though. Is there a place to go to see which runes you've already identified in a given game? Maybe similar to monster and object knowledge using the ~?

[yyt16384]

We need some ID means other than ID-by-use. Currently you have to risk being hit by nexus breath to learn nexus resistance, unless you have an artifact that is known to have it (but that is unfair to new players and won't work in randart games).

[nikheizen]

We need some ID means other than ID-by-use. Currently you have to risk being hit by nexus breath to learn nexus resistance, unless you have an artifact that is known to have it (but that is unfair to new players and won't work in randart games).

Luckily that particular example is less drastic since Nexus is no longer a permanent stat swap with this branch.

But for stuff like the sticky cursed items, stat swap potions, etc. I certainly agree. Nick's proposed change (IE you know a minimum set of runes based on character level) seems like it would help with this somewhat.

[fph]

Luckily that particular example is less drastic since Nexus is no longer a permanent stat swap with this branch.

But for stuff like the sticky cursed items, stat swap potions, etc. I certainly agree. Nick's proposed change (IE you know a minimum set of runes based on character level) seems like it would help with this somewhat.

I don't think there is anything wrong in identifying stat swap potions by use only, their effect is not as critical as nexus. -1 CON, +1 INT? Not the end of the world, you can survive another 10 levels.

[Nick]

OK, new builds for Windows and OS X up that do this:

• Calculate

  (total number of runes in the game) x (character level) / 30

  and that's the standard number of runes for a character of that level to have learned
• If the character is below the standard number:
  • They learn runes of objects on wield until they run out of such runes or reach the standard number
  • On level up, they learn runes of carried objects until they run out of such runes or reach the standard number

I haven't done anything about flavoured non-wearables yet, but it would be straightforward to implement something similar. Also you still need to inspect to see if something is fully known or not, no way of seeing what runes you have, etc.

Possibly nexus would be better as an effect cured on level up than as timed?

Pls play and comment.

[PowerWyrm]

The main gameplay changes are:

• No more magical ID
• No more pseudo-ID
• Once a property has been noticed on any object, it will always be noticed on every object
• Artifact names are noticed immediately, ego and jewellery names when all the regular properties are known
• Shop items only show the extent of the player's knowledge, so indistinguishable (to the player) objects may have different prices
• Derakon's change of the nexus stat-scramble to a timed effect is included

Cool, you just turned Angband into Final Fantasy II

IMO, all changes here are great, except for shops. And that's the big problem... With normal ID, all items in shops are identified, but knowledge is only limited to that item (except flavors). With rune-based ID, if you keep the old shop system, you will identify most (if not all) of the runes very quickly by simply buying from shops. If you limit shop items to player knowledge, then you force players to choose between never buying from shops or buying useless crap for just ID purposes. I don't see what could be done easily here, reintroduce fully known items in shops, leave as it is, or maybe implement shops like the General Store, with only easily known items inside (consumables, average items). Maybe reintroduce fully known items in the BM only...

[PowerWyrm]

We're looking for a next comp. Too soon to make a rune-based ID one?

Please do make one. This will be a great opportunity to test the new system.

[spara]

With rune-based ID, if you keep the old shop system, you will identify most (if not all) of the runes very quickly by simply buying from shops.

Is this really a problem? Can't see how it would be a bad thing.

[TJS]

Well this looks very interesting, my initial thoughts without playing (I'm away so may not get a chance for a little while):

Rune based ID - great idea
Remove id - excellent
Random character levelling up knowledge - really don't like this at all and it seems to negate the whole system, it should be done through learning or not at all in my opinion. If the id game is not fun and adds nothing to the game then it should be either changed until it is or removed entirely.

un-identified shop stuff - you should be able to purchase it as usual, but you pay a premium for each rune you haven't already identified. They are selling you both knowledge and an item in this case.

Also to make the whole process of identification more interesting (and in some cases possible) you should be able to use items on yourself. So a wand of stinking cloud can id resist poison (in the same way that drinking a potion of poison does). A wand of slow monster can test for free action. A wand of fire/cold/lightning can id those resists too. rNexus could protect against something like a wand of polymorph (although I'd personally remove the whole polymorph concept). This should work on all items in your backpack as well as things that are wielded.

I think feather falling should work on all traps to make it easy to identify and also useful (also I'd like to see detect traps go as it just makes the whole thing pointless - whoops getting off track again).

For remove curse/curse equipment it should prompt you to choose an item to use it on, so you could use it on a random weapon you don't want. The whole curse system is pretty lame anyway really.

[Rydel]

Buying a sword of Slay Troll and not getting the rune seems silly, buying a Holy Avenger and getting all the runes seems to be putting too much emphasis on shops. That's the reason for the way I did shop items; I'm happy to listen to alternatives, but they need to address those points and be logical

A possible idea for this might be to have each item have a flag of whether it's name is known. When this flag is on, the item displays its name.
*Learning all of an items properties would turn on the flag
*Artifacts have the flag turned on as soon as they'd no longer be preserved
*Store bought items would have the flag on, even if you don't know their properties. The shopkeeper may have told you this sword is a Holy Avenger, but that doesn't mean you character knows what a Holy Avenger does.